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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:40 pm 
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I still remember -- quite well, in fact -- IBM demoing a development build of ViaVoice with pretty much flawless accuracy. It handled dictation, navigation, formatting, editing all absolutely amazingly. All it needed was some work from app and OS developers to make the UI *really* voice friendly, and that was surely just around the corner...

Fluid, near-perfect voice-driven interfaces have been five years away for at least two decades now.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:51 pm 
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ThinkRob wrote:
Fluid, near-perfect voice-driven interfaces have been five years away for at least two decades now.


And not only is the technology consistently five years away, it's still too targeted at the guy who works in a private office. We're not going to have 7 year olds dictating their book reports in the living room.

There are absolutely environments in which voice recognition software would be ideal -- engineers who can dictate reports on site while working, for example -- but it's not going to be a universal desire.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:36 pm 
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The day they change all the Thinkpads to Chiclet Keyboards, is the day I go Apple.
There is something noble about being oldschool. If Thinkpads leave the oldschool behind, then it's beginning of the end.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Kaze22 wrote:
The day they change all the Thinkpads to Chiclet Keyboards, is the day I go Apple.
There is something noble about being oldschool. If Thinkpads leave the oldschool behind, then it's beginning of the end.


You may think that you can "escape" by going Apple, but I would say that the beginnng of the end has already started at Apple. Sony may have "invented" chiclet keyboard but Apple is the one who made it mainstream. Mac Os interface isn't what it used to be and more it resembles iOS with every release. With a constant marketing push for upgrading to the latest and greatest, the development for major OS updates are shrinking close to about a year. With every major release they are extra features which only clutters and dumbs down the OS interface.

When it gets really bad, some of us are planning to escape to linux. Just have to hope that there will be a company that makes reasonably well-engineered hardware in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:37 am 
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First picture of the new ThinkPad L530: http://www.lenovo.com/images/products/n ... s/L530.png

Chiclet is coming. The old L-Series had the classic keycaps with 6-rows.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:53 am 
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First picture of the T530: http://www.lenovo.com/images/products/n ... s/T530.png

You can see the chiclet-keyboard, because there is no blue enter key. I think all ThinkPads this year will switch to the new chiclet design.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:01 am 
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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:02 am 
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Here is the W530: http://www.lenovo.com/images/products/n ... s/W530.png

6 row and chicklet. Not entirely sure what to say.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:03 am 
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Is it just me or is there something weird with the screen dimensions on that picture of the w530?


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:44 am 
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Ole wrote:
6 row and chicklet. Not entirely sure what to say.


But at least the keys are still curved.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Ole wrote:
6 row and chicklet. Not entirely sure what to say.
One (almost final) nail in the coffin of Thinkpad uniqueness. Lenovo is slowly making sure to lose its competitive advantage in Thinkpad's traditional selling points in order to compete better among the masses. Maybe their market analysis showed it will bring them more profit at the end of the day (I doubt it).

To me this change is the worst and saddest thing that happened to Thinkpads ever. Yes, today is the day when I will say "a Thinkpad is not a Thinkpad anymore", and will be looking freely at other brands. :)

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:53 pm 
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I will still be in for the trackpoint. Tried dell and acer, nowhere near in trackpoint quality. Rumour from another forum says the x-series retains the normal keyboard btw.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Trust me its just the beginning, soon they'll get rid of the Square sharp corner chassis and make the Thinkpads round like the Macs, then they'll throw out the matte black motif and make them all shiny metal units.

It was the end when they added the line across the lid of the X201 series. Watch and see all those years of tradition go down the drain.

Sometimes I wish it was a Japanese company that bought Thinkpad at least they understand the value of old school traditions.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Kaze22 wrote:
Trust me.......

Why would anyone trust what are clearly nothing but strongly held beliefs :??:


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Ole wrote:
Rumour from another forum says the x-series retains the normal keyboard btw.


Maybe that's why we haven't already seen any X230 (shooped) pics yet.
But that'd be odd for Lenovo to switch only one of their two main lines to chiclets whilst leaving the other with the legacy layout.

My take is they'll either keep the legacy keyboard on the T and X, or switch both to chiclets.
The latter option being unfortunately more probable.......

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:53 pm 
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bill bolton wrote:
Why would anyone trust what are clearly nothing but strongly held beliefs :??:


I hope you realize that my post was a joke. :roll: I'm not actually implying that Thinkpads will be round and silver anytime soon. But then again, you never know...
Somebody needs a lesson on humor, and possibly sarcasm.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:42 am 
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Ole wrote:
Is it just me or is there something weird with the screen dimensions on that picture of the w530?

Looks like the horizontal:vertical aspect ratio has increased to something like 19:6. But it's just the tilt of the screen and angle the photo was taken.

Summilux wrote:
But that'd be odd for Lenovo to switch only one of their two main lines to chiclets whilst leaving the other with the legacy layout.

My take is they'll either keep the legacy keyboard on the T and X, or switch both to chiclets.
The latter option being unfortunately more probable.......

The difference may be due to volume. Smaller T and X are volume sellers. Why mess with their cash cow, i.e. models that are popular?
W5xx and T5xx are not volume sellers. Test the water out by trying chiclet keyboard on less popular models.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:58 am 
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sanjuro wrote:
The difference may be due to volume. Smaller T and X are volume sellers. Why mess with their cash cow, i.e. models that are popular?
W5xx and T5xx are not volume sellers. Test the water out by trying chiclet keyboard on less popular models.
Nobody's testing out the chiclet keyboard. The decision to use it was made and it's final. All T series models get it.

If indeed the X series retains the normal keyboard for now, then it's only because the X series design team seems to be somewhat disjoint from the T series team. History shows that quite often the design transitions came late to the X series (X31 vs T41, X61 vs T61, X201 vs T410 are three examples which come to mind).

I for one would hope the X series retains normal keyboard. If it also keeps the IPS screen option, it means there is an interesting Thinkpad for me to buy at least for one more generation. :)

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Having used the X120e for several months, and moving back to a X60s or my X31, the older keyboard seems flimsy. The new keyboard really is an improvement; the only thing I would change is to retain the seventh row.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:02 pm 
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I have to wonder just how many people complaining about the chiclet keyboard have actually used the Lenovo keyboard?

For some background, I've spend the last 4 years or so on a T61. The Nvidia-equipped motherboard just died a fiery death, and my back-up laptop was dead as well. So, I ended up laptop shopping. I had a bit of analysis paralysis, looking at the T420/L420, reading about the new Ivy Bridge units, contemplating fixing my trusty T61... Right around that time I saw an Edge E420 @ on the Lenovo Outlet, I3 2350M, 500GB HD, 720P camera, BT etc for $350.00. At that price I figured this would be a great back-up unit while I figured out what I wanted to do.

Of course, I made the incorrect assumption that a "refurbished unit" was actually "in stock". That was a poor assumption on my part. About a month later, several phone calls and chat conversations (while using my smartphone as my computer), I finally got my hands on the computer. The whole experience has me pretty soured on Lenovo as a company, and frankly I'm hard to anger. I've worked in service-based industries long enough to cut folks some slack, but the process of shipping and communicating to the customer seems to be completely broken, and they seem to be creating some ill will when the process breaks down. (This is its own long and annoying story, but I'll save that for another time).

All that said, now that I'm typing on the machine, I have to say that the keyboard is hands-down better than the one on my T61. Dare I say that it's the closest to the Model M keyboard that I've ever used on a laptop. My typing is faster and more accurate than on my T61, and the overall feel in subject terms is better. Unfortunately, I can't really live with the incredibly sharp edge at the end of the palm rest (where your wrists sit). I can't really type for more than about 5 minutes without having to lift my hands up--which is quite annoying. It would appear that they've solved this with the new Edge E430/530 series by rounding off the bottom. They've also corrected the other issue with the keyboard, enlarging the page up/down keys and the arrow keys. Frankly, I never used the top-row keys on my T61, so it's no loss. I actually would prefer that they weren't there since it makes accessing the top row blind a little easier for me.

The bottom line for me is that I'm going to wait until the next 430 or 530 units come out and pick one up if by then I've gotten over my frustration at this whole ordeal. As far as T/L/E, I haven't decided. But this is hands-down the best keyboard I've ever used on a laptop.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Quote:
I have to wonder just how many people complaining about the chiclet keyboard have actually used the Lenovo keyboard?
I’m not aware of any requirement on the internet to have anything beyond an opinion to comment, either positively or negatively, about a topic. And I agree with your assessment of the Edge keyboard.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:23 pm 
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dsvochak wrote:
I’m not aware of any requirement on the internet to have anything beyond an opinion to comment, either positively or negatively, about a topic. And I agree with your assessment of the Edge keyboard.


One can certainly comment (I never meant to imply otherwise). I understand asking questions about the decision or expressing reticence; but declarative statements such as "I'm going to Apple if Lenovo goes to chiclet keyboard" just don't make much sense to me. Nor does proffering an opinion about the superiority of one over the other without actually experiencing it? That seems a bit odd.

It's obviously not odd in the world of technical gadgets though. I discovered that while buying my last phone. It seems that about 80% of Cnet "user reviews" are from people who've actually never touched the phone. I don't know about you, but I don't get much value from those reviews!

I guess my main point is that "where the keys terminate", either above or below the template, seems to matter little with respect to the typing experience. I've typed on some truly awful conventional keyboards and some very average chiclet keyboards. So, I think the rush to judgement solely on the fact that it's an island-style keyboard is a bit premature.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Well, people have veeeeeeeeery strong opinions regarding traditional and chiclet keyboards. Think the PC vs. Mac phenomenon, or iOS vs. Android: the majority of debate really is not based on facts and experiences. Same here. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:59 pm 
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twistero wrote:

Quote:
Well, people have veeeeeeeeery strong opinions regarding traditional and chiclet keyboards.


Why would you be expecting anything else, especially on a ThinkPad forum?

Personally, the day that I buy a ThinkPad with a 6-row chiclet keyboard is the very same day that the h*ll freezes...but that's me.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:15 pm 
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ajkula66 wrote:
Why would you be expecting anything else, especially on a ThinkPad forum?


Why, I'm not expecting anything else, but apparently the poster above me (Jack Watts) was. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:20 pm 
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twistero wrote:
Well, people have veeeeeeeeery strong opinions regarding traditional and chiclet keyboards. Think the PC vs. Mac phenomenon, or iOS vs. Android: the majority of debate really is not based on facts and experiences. Same here. :roll:


Indeed, I'm finding that out. Of course, I also don't get the emotion investment folks have in the iOS vs Android thing either...

I guess here's what's weird to me. I chose my T61 purely based on functionality, as I'm guessing a lot of others did as well. Let's face it, it's not the most exciting looking beast out there (though cool in its own blocky way). To me, function trumps aesthetics any day. I have to think that among other TP users I'm not alone. Yet, the major complaints about the new keyboard seem to be based on aesthetics, not performance. That's not to discount those who've used both and prefer the older style. To me at least, the true aesthetic of a "real Thinkpad" is function over appearance, and holding to design elemet just to keep a certain look violates that tradition in my eyes.

I realize I'm not going to change the mind of those who have an emotional investment in what they believe a keyboard should look like; but to those who are wondering about the new keyboard and have a more open mind, I'd suggesting giving it a try. I will tell you that after a day of typing on this, I wouldn't have considered the new T-series for my next "real" computer if it didn't have this keyboard.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:19 am 
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If I'd want to use a chicklet keyboard I'd switch to my MacBook fulltime or buy a Sony Z or an HP EliteBook with Dreamcolor display.

As a long time Thinkpad user, I have yet to find a keyboard, which is comparable to the NMB 7-row keyboard known from my T4xp or X31.
Especially without Windows keys, because I need to make heavy use of Ctrl and Alt keys, and therefore the extra Windows keys are very disturbing.

I do not understand Lenovo, why they do not offer the "classic" 7-row keyboard as an option, or maintain a classic Thinkpad model.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:55 am 
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Jack Watts wrote:
Yet, the major complaints about the new keyboard seem to be based on aesthetics, not performance.
How do you figure? Most of the worries on these forum have been about how typing would feel on the new keyboard style and about how the modified layout will affect productivity. These are performance, not aesthetics.

lophiomys wrote:
I do not understand Lenovo, why they do not offer the "classic" 7-row keyboard as an option, or maintain a classic Thinkpad model.
Because nobody offers or has ever offered different types of keyboards as "options" on the same laptop. As to why they chose to ditch the classic keyboard and switch all series to the new one - well, we can speculate on several possible reasons, none of which will probably sound flattering.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:40 pm 
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dr_st wrote:
How do you figure? Most of the worries on these forum have been about how typing would feel on the new keyboard style and about how the modified layout will affect productivity. These are performance, not aesthetics.


I have heard very few people express any reservations about how the keyboard will feel (in any of the 17 threads with folks complaining about the keyboard), so if that's their concern they aren't articulating it very well. Yes, *some* people have questioned how the keyboard will feel; most however seem to be hung up on the aesthetics of the whole deal. If quality of the typing experience were actually concern, they've probably either 1) read some of the reviews from those who've actually typed on the keyboard or 2) wait to try it themselves. Instead folks are bashing it simply because it doesn't look like the old keyboard and because Apple popularized the use of island-style keyboards. If "productivity" were really the issue, I can't really see folks complaining about the lack of a blue enter key? If you need a color to differentiate that giant key next to the " key, you have some other, much more significant things impacting your productivity--such as learning how to type...

The ironic thing is that while I love the keyboard on the Edge, there are enough things that I can't live with (the incredibly sharp edge on the case that is KILLING my wrists, and the sub-par screen) that I just ordered an X220 with an IPS screen. They've addressed the case issue w/the E430, but there's still nothing in the way of screen options available. So, I'm going back to the "old" keyboard, unwillingly. If the X230 is available with an IPS screen, then I'll probably end up rehoming my X220 a year down the line, and the "real Thinkpad" devotees can get a deal on my gently-used machine!


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Jack Watts wrote:
...most however seem to be hung up on the aesthetics of the whole deal.


If you deem the transition from a 7-row to a 6-row keyboard to be a purely aesthetical one, good for you.

For quite a few folks around here, that is a productivity issue.

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