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A contrarian viewpoint
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Yes, the internal batteries are not on sale like the normal external batteries. As far as I know, you can purchase them however like a normal part - like keyboards or palmrests for example.
And as a side note, as you may know the T440s has 2 batteries, and the external battery is on sale on their website like all other removable batteries. This is also the one you may need to replace sooner or later - since I have the T440s (more than 6 months now...), the internal battery has not lost any significant amount of capacity - the external battery has lost more than 10 % of the capacity. The internal battery will be down to zero at some point of course, that may be in 3 years.
And as a side note, as you may know the T440s has 2 batteries, and the external battery is on sale on their website like all other removable batteries. This is also the one you may need to replace sooner or later - since I have the T440s (more than 6 months now...), the internal battery has not lost any significant amount of capacity - the external battery has lost more than 10 % of the capacity. The internal battery will be down to zero at some point of course, that may be in 3 years.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
The internal/external battery design seems quite clever, actually. For one, it distributes the weight better, does it not? It seems like it would do so.Ibthink wrote:And as a side note, as you may know the T440s has 2 batteries, and the external battery is on sale on their website like all other removable batteries. This is also the one you may need to replace sooner or later - since I have the T440s (more than 6 months now...), the internal battery has not lost any significant amount of capacity - the external battery has lost more than 10 % of the capacity. The internal battery will be down to zero at some point of course, that may be in 3 years.
Having the external battery be used up first is also good. As you say though, eventually the internal battery will need to be replaced. (I'm probably unusual in that I have replaced my T410 battery at least three times since the purchase. It really does make a difference to pop in a fresh battery every year or two).
If it were me, I would buy the three-cell external, because I like my laptops to lay flat. I have the wedge battery for my T410, and I only ever use it when I absolutely must, because I don't like the non-flat profile that it gives the laptop. That's just me though, and still the option is nice to have and I do make use of it from time to time.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
JonathanGennick did say "some of the newer Thinkpad models". Just a couple years ago, all Thinkpads were easy to service, and pkiff thought that's still true. So, JonathanGennick corrected him.Ibthink wrote:Thats not true. Is there any ThinkPad with a glued down battery? Fully soldered RAM (apart from the X1 Carbon)? Non-standard SSDs? Or a screen that breaks if you try to swap it?
Compared to the rest of the world, China is still the fastest growing as far as PC sales are concerned. If you look hard enough, you may find a country or two that grow at even higher rates, but in terms of absolute numbers, China is still #1 simply because it is the world's most populous country. By contrast, the PC market has been shrinking rapidly in most other countries. Yes, Lenovo has increased its presence outside China, but this isn't the same as saying that the PC market outside China is growing. And why is Lenovo doing better than its competitors outside of China? See reasons 1, 3 and 4 listed in my previous post.pianowizard wrote:China isn´t that "rapidly growing anymore" it seems... http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 90962.html
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Just take a look at the service manuals, the latest Lenovo offerings are clearly not as easy to service as older models.
So what if it has a lid at the bottom that gives you access to a few things, so does a Dell or HP, except, they give you more access.
As soon as you have to dig deeper, the new Lenovo's are not for the faint of heart.
Take a look at the service manuals and compare them to older models, you won't believe that you are actually looking at something branded as "ThinkPad", it's not built like one at all.
So what if it has a lid at the bottom that gives you access to a few things, so does a Dell or HP, except, they give you more access.
As soon as you have to dig deeper, the new Lenovo's are not for the faint of heart.
Take a look at the service manuals and compare them to older models, you won't believe that you are actually looking at something branded as "ThinkPad", it's not built like one at all.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
^^^ I agree. Lenovo is working hard to be more Apple like everyday in terms of looks, function and servicability.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I've just downloaded the W540 mainteance manual. And I thought W520 could do better in serviceability...
And look at the Dell Precision line. One large cover at the bottom that gives you access almost everywhere. It even looks better inside. Every time I open my W520 it looks like something made by Russians.
And look at the Dell Precision line. One large cover at the bottom that gives you access almost everywhere. It even looks better inside. Every time I open my W520 it looks like something made by Russians.
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Hey, Russians did make quite a few things that did look good on the inside...both AK-47 and AK-74 come to mind...Sleepy664 wrote: Every time I open my W520 it looks like something made by Russians.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
The most reliable and long lived spacecraft in the history of space flight comes to mind as well, the Soyuz!ajkula66 wrote: Hey, Russians did make quite a few things that did look good on the inside...both AK-47 and AK-74 come to mind...
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Engines for N1 rocket were also great. There is a nice documentary on YouTube about them...
///https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEX0IHI ... gwfv8_58TO
But that was not my point
Last Russian (better say Soviet) thing that I disassembled was some old portable radio. It was incredibly sloppy inside even for the 1960's. But it's true that it was still in working order...
///https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEX0IHI ... gwfv8_58TO
But that was not my point
Last Russian (better say Soviet) thing that I disassembled was some old portable radio. It was incredibly sloppy inside even for the 1960's. But it's true that it was still in working order...
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I was quite disappointed when I saw that wires where held in place with TAPE??? inside my W510, and as far as I know, the service manual states that you have to remove the display assembly, just to remove the cooler.Sleepy664 wrote: But that was not my point
Last Russian (better say Soviet) thing that I disassembled was some old portable radio. It was incredibly sloppy inside even for the 1960's. But it's true that it was still in working order...
That would explain why the cooler is so tightly wedged in there, though still possible to remove with the display on.
Also, those snap locks on the plamrest/keyboard bezel, they are just too weak and easy to break, and they loose their grip over time, if the plamrest has been removed often (mine has, definitely!).
I can only imagine how bad it must be for the T440s, you basically have to force that thing apart and the plastic seems very fragile.
All just to get to the HDD
I have seen some very nice Soviet audio gear over at audiokarma though, Klingon I think it is called (nothing to do with StarTrek though).
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
But I think high-end Soviet Hi-Fi equipement was made in aircraft/space shuttle/whatever factories and was pretty expensive. Not all of their audio stuff was like that; ordinary people were glad they could afford food at least every other day
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
True, most people could not afford that kind of stuff.Sleepy664 wrote:But I think high-end Soviet Hi-Fi equipement was made in aircraft/space shuttle/whatever factories and was pretty expensive. Not all of their audio stuff was like that; ordinary people were glad they could afford food at least every other day
My speakers are also "Soviet" USSR, the speaker drivers where made in Bulgaria back in the 70's EXCELLENT but dirt cheap stuff, and still in production today (GAMMA/Vissokogovoriteli).
No need to change something that works really well, is there? Lenovo??
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Oh
My
God.
What an ugly POS. The only thing I would want to test with that computer would be it's aerodynamics off the roof of a 20 story building.
(hugs E6500).
I am getting a T410 soon and I am hoping to like it. If not, up for sale it will be.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Temetka, if you get a t410, stay away from the 1280 pixel screen choice. Worst decision I ever made, except for that one time with the PC Jr. I have lived with a t410 for four years now, and I have hated every minute of looking at that display. I cannot politely express how awful thinkpad displays were in that era.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I concur. These are really nasty.JonathanGennick wrote:Temetka, if you get a t410, stay away from the 1280 pixel screen choice.
Most of the WXGA+ panels on T410 were actually semi-decent by (incredibly low) standard for 14" ThinkPads.
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One FlexView to rule them all: A31p
Abused daily: T520, X200s
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
The one I am getting has a 1440x900 (or whatever) display.
It's mainly going to be a backup machine for when I don't want to lug my E6520 around.
If it serves my needs, it stays. If it does not, it goes and I get another Dell. Not really too worried about it.
It's mainly going to be a backup machine for when I don't want to lug my E6520 around.
If it serves my needs, it stays. If it does not, it goes and I get another Dell. Not really too worried about it.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I was thinking about how the best ThinkPad for me would look.
It would definately be a 15.4" machine without a touchpad. If I have to use a mouse (not very often, I use keyboard for most of the tasks), TouchPoint is the most comfortable option. Why the world thinks it should be the other way round?
It would definately be a 15.4" machine without a touchpad. If I have to use a mouse (not very often, I use keyboard for most of the tasks), TouchPoint is the most comfortable option. Why the world thinks it should be the other way round?
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
R61e.Sleepy664 wrote:I was thinking about how the best ThinkPad for me would look.
It would definately be a 15.4" machine without a touchpad.
Cheap to buy and easy to upgrade.
BTW, I'm with you on "no touchpad" issue...
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I've returned to repent of my original post. Well, my opinion in that first post might still be the right one for Lenovo as a business, but I'm here to confess that moving to using a trackpad is not so easy as I had thought. It's one thing to stand there in a store and play at a Mac and its trackpad for five minutes. It's quite another thing to try and get through a day's work.
There are so many little annoyances involved in moving my hands from keyboard to trackpad and back and forth and back and forth. Meh. I am not so sure anymore about buying a Mac for myself. The company sent me a five-year-old Macbook to try out. There's a lot to like, but there's definitely an increase in blood pressure and a drop in productivity as a result of moving from a Trackpoint to a touchpad.
There are so many little annoyances involved in moving my hands from keyboard to trackpad and back and forth and back and forth. Meh. I am not so sure anymore about buying a Mac for myself. The company sent me a five-year-old Macbook to try out. There's a lot to like, but there's definitely an increase in blood pressure and a drop in productivity as a result of moving from a Trackpoint to a touchpad.
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Personally, I believe the last "true" thinkpads ended with the W70xd/ds, W500, T400/T500, and X20x series. After these models multiple drastic changes were made:
1. Loss of CFRP base in T/W series
2. Cheaper materials used
3. Virtually no more clamshell design
4. Elimination of all status lights except disk, wifi (which doesn't even blink for Rx/Tx), and bluetooth (t410)
5. Thicker but not necessarily stronger (ex. removal of magnesium LCD rollcage, why so few stress test videos of newer generation thinkpads as opposed to older generations?)
6. Worse panel fitment and QC
However, Lenovo finally redesigned their hinges not to become so wobbly (or snap) with the introduction of the T410/T400s/T510/x220 series, and overall, the machines were still fine, but not as exceptional like before. But the latest generation thinkpads add to the list by getting rid of latches, all LED status lights, weaker lid, worse keyboard/trackpoint, and arguably even worse materials. They are now a hybrid business/consumer laptop that is barely reminiscent of real Thinkpad quality or design. However, the screens are much better, which is a very good change. If I ever get another laptop though, it would be from HP's or Dell's business line.
1. Loss of CFRP base in T/W series
2. Cheaper materials used
3. Virtually no more clamshell design
4. Elimination of all status lights except disk, wifi (which doesn't even blink for Rx/Tx), and bluetooth (t410)
5. Thicker but not necessarily stronger (ex. removal of magnesium LCD rollcage, why so few stress test videos of newer generation thinkpads as opposed to older generations?)
6. Worse panel fitment and QC
However, Lenovo finally redesigned their hinges not to become so wobbly (or snap) with the introduction of the T410/T400s/T510/x220 series, and overall, the machines were still fine, but not as exceptional like before. But the latest generation thinkpads add to the list by getting rid of latches, all LED status lights, weaker lid, worse keyboard/trackpoint, and arguably even worse materials. They are now a hybrid business/consumer laptop that is barely reminiscent of real Thinkpad quality or design. However, the screens are much better, which is a very good change. If I ever get another laptop though, it would be from HP's or Dell's business line.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I'm kinda glad those status lights are gone. 10 blinking lights on a W500 right under the LCD...no, thanks
Well, maybe they could put the less important ones somewhere else, not get rid of them at all.
What bothers me the most is the screen lid. CFRP is too fexible. It's true that when I smashed my laptop against a metal doorframe really hard while carrying it, it only got a small scratch on the surface, so it isn't a bad material...but magnesium alloy FTW.
(Well, technically that lid is a combo of CFRP and GRP, made out of two pieces glued together...there is a picture of it on a Lenovo blog or somewhere...what is wrong with the magnesium/aluminium alloy and a plastic cover for the antennas, like Dell and HP does it?)
And I hate that keyboard wear. Keyboard on a W520 is still awsome, much better than Dell Precision's, but the keys are shiny after just 2 months of use. HP uses some "DuraKey" technology so it wears less...but David Hill from Lenovo is almost glad that his keyboard looks like [censored]:
http://blog.lenovo.com/design/thinkpad-desire-lines
///I found it. Two piece plastic lid. Not glued tohether but insert molded:
http://blog.lenovo.com/design/hold-the-line
...in the discussion someone mentions the T430u which has the line on the lid. And I think it looks pretty good.
Well, maybe they could put the less important ones somewhere else, not get rid of them at all.
What bothers me the most is the screen lid. CFRP is too fexible. It's true that when I smashed my laptop against a metal doorframe really hard while carrying it, it only got a small scratch on the surface, so it isn't a bad material...but magnesium alloy FTW.
(Well, technically that lid is a combo of CFRP and GRP, made out of two pieces glued together...there is a picture of it on a Lenovo blog or somewhere...what is wrong with the magnesium/aluminium alloy and a plastic cover for the antennas, like Dell and HP does it?)
And I hate that keyboard wear. Keyboard on a W520 is still awsome, much better than Dell Precision's, but the keys are shiny after just 2 months of use. HP uses some "DuraKey" technology so it wears less...but David Hill from Lenovo is almost glad that his keyboard looks like [censored]:
http://blog.lenovo.com/design/thinkpad-desire-lines
///I found it. Two piece plastic lid. Not glued tohether but insert molded:
http://blog.lenovo.com/design/hold-the-line
...in the discussion someone mentions the T430u which has the line on the lid. And I think it looks pretty good.
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
LED panels are less prone to break under physical stress than the CCFL screens that were used in older thinkpads, so Lenovo replaced it with a CF + GF composite lid and made it thinner. Cost could also be a consideration. I agree that magnesium lids feel much better than a CFRP/GFRP lid and in general are stronger. That cold metalllic feel and smoothness is great when you touch it.What bothers me the most is the screen lid. CFRP is too fexible. It's true that when I smashed my laptop against a metal doorframe really hard while carrying it, it only got a small scratch on the surface, so it isn't a bad material...but magnesium alloy FTW.
As far as keyboard wear is concerned, I just wash my hands if they are overly oily or sticky (no food or water ever goes near my thinkpad). Also, the newer chiclet keyboards show oil/grease marks very easily as compared to the more matte finished keys on the standard keyboards. You could get a keyboard cover, but then that ruins the tactile feel and you have to take it off and on whenever you want to use it.
Current Thinkpads: W530 (functional classic keyboard mod), X301, T61, T60, T43, A31p, T23, 600X, 770
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
They may show oild and grease more easily, but they does not wear of the same way as the older matte keys. Also, there are differences between different manufacturers, my T440s came with a keyboard from Chicony, which indeed shows oil/grease very quickly, I switched it with a keyboard from LiteOn, which is much better in this aspect - and also better in many other aspects...brchan wrote:Also, the newer chiclet keyboards show oil/grease marks very easily as compared to the more matte finished keys on the standard keyboards. You could get a keyboard cover, but then that ruins the tactile feel and you have to take it off and on whenever you want to use it.
This is only true for Backlight keyboards, they need to be made out of a special material. The non-Backlight keyboards are still the same old matte finish, that wears of very quickly.
Magnesium as a material is weaker than CFRP - while I agree that its very nice to touch, CFRP is simply stronger. If I compare for example the T400 with my T440s, the T400 lid being much thicker with the Magnesium frame inside, and the T440s lid being much thinner, the CFRP lid performs exceptionally for being so much thinner - if the lid would be nearly as thick as the T400 lid, it should be much stiffer and rugged.brchan wrote:I agree that magnesium lids feel much better than a CFRP/GFRP lid and in general are stronger.
Very true - the newer displays are much less delicate. Also, newer displays are in general thinner.brchan wrote:LED panels are less prone to break under physical stress than the CCFL screens that were used in older thinkpads, so Lenovo replaced it with a CF + GF composite lid and made it thinner.
I often saw pictures of X220 units with this plastic top-part comming off - in general it just isn´t good engineering/design to do this.Sleepy664 wrote:(Well, technically that lid is a combo of CFRP and GRP, made out of two pieces glued together...there is a picture of it on a Lenovo blog or somewhere...what is wrong with the magnesium/aluminium alloy and a plastic cover for the antennas, like Dell and HP does it?)
Last edited by Ibthink on Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I just checked my W530 and it indeed has a Chicony keyboard :/. In fact, now that you mention it, I have seen 3 chicony keyboards in the past, and they all had increased wear on the keys compared to the 2 NMB keyboards I have used.They may show oild and grease more easily, but they does not wear of the same way as the older matte keys. Also, there are differences between different manufacturers, my T440s came with a keyboard from Chicony, which indeed shows oil/grease very quickly, I switched it with a keyboard from LiteOn, which is much better in this aspect - and also better in many other aspects...
Odd, when I compared my old T61 lid to my W530's lid, the T61's lid was quite stiffer. Although this may not be a fair comparison since the W530 has a larger surface area. Also, design may be more important than materials used.Magnesium as a material is weaker than CFRP - while I agree that its very nice to touch, CFRP is simply stronger. If I compare for example the T400 with my T440s, the T400 lid being much thicker with the Magnesium frame inside, and the T440s lid being much thinner, the CFRP lid performs exceptionally for being so much thinner - if the lid would be nearly as thick as the T400 lid, it should be much stiffer and rugged.
Current Thinkpads: W530 (functional classic keyboard mod), X301, T61, T60, T43, A31p, T23, 600X, 770
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Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Even on W520 the Chicony keyboard wears more.
There is also a slight difference in color between NMB and Chicony keyboards for W520. Chicony is black with gray CapsLk key, NMB is completely gray so it fits the surrounding palmrest better. It is also slightly less reflective.
And I think ThinkPad plastics (either CFRP or GRP or just P) are worse than Dell's aluminium/magnesium. Palmrest and the lid on a W520 just screams "CHEAP, CHEAP!" (even if the lid it is actually more expensive to manufacture)
There is also a slight difference in color between NMB and Chicony keyboards for W520. Chicony is black with gray CapsLk key, NMB is completely gray so it fits the surrounding palmrest better. It is also slightly less reflective.
And I think ThinkPad plastics (either CFRP or GRP or just P) are worse than Dell's aluminium/magnesium. Palmrest and the lid on a W520 just screams "CHEAP, CHEAP!" (even if the lid it is actually more expensive to manufacture)
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
Most Thinkpads have plastic (whether CFRP, GRP, PC + ABS) covering a magnesium alloy frame because the plastic helps absorb more energy, while the magnesium frame provides stiffness/strength and resistence against torsion. Now, if you just have a metal enclosure like on most elitebooks or latitudes/precisions, you have more energy that is channeled into the motherboard, ram, HDD/SSD components, which will result in a greater chance of damage (similar to securing an egg into a metal box, dropping it, and hoping it survives, though slightly exaggerated). Toughbooks use a similar method of protecting components to thinkpads, but by putting shock mounted components in a thicker, complete metal case, surrounded with very thick and durable rubber. Of course, there are many other factors such as design that influence durability and reliability.And I think ThinkPad plastics (either CFRP or GRP or just P) are worse than Dell's aluminium/magnesium. Palmrest and the lid on a W520 just screams "CHEAP, CHEAP!" (even if the lid it is actually more expensive to manufacture)
With regards to palmrest quality, I agree that it has declined over the years. In general, I found that T60 palmrests are quite good and in some ways stronger than the T4x palmrests. T61 palmrest felt slightly cheaper, but still not bad, while the palmrests on the T410 and on are quite a step down and sound hollow when tapped.
Current Thinkpads: W530 (functional classic keyboard mod), X301, T61, T60, T43, A31p, T23, 600X, 770
Other: mk5 Toughbook cf-19, mk1 Toughbook cf-53
Other: mk5 Toughbook cf-19, mk1 Toughbook cf-53
Re: A contrarian viewpoint
I always thought ThinkPad users would be best served with two input setups - one optimized for stick users and another for touch pad users. This way the touch pad could be enlarged by removing the stick buttons, which would be especially helpful for smaller ThinkPads like the X series. As much as I prefer the stick, I know there's lots of users who don't, perhaps the majority. Giving them better options should be a priority for Lenovo just as keeping current customers happy should be as well. It seems like a win-win to me, but what do I know?
I've got my X220 and don't foresee upgrading anytime soon. Hopefully, when I'm ready, they'll have this figured out.
I've got my X220 and don't foresee upgrading anytime soon. Hopefully, when I'm ready, they'll have this figured out.
ThinkPad L14 - 2.1GHz Ryzen 4650U | 16GB | 256GB | 14" FHD | Win11P
ProBook 470 G5 - 1.6GHz Core i5 | 16GB | 2.2TB | 17" FHD | Mint
ProBook 470 G5 - 1.6GHz Core i5 | 16GB | 2.2TB | 17" FHD | Mint
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