New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*

[Johan]

As mentioned previously in this thread, I have been trying to find out which mSATA SSD’s are - with as much certainty as possible! - fully compatible (= "known-good") for use with the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock/Kuroutoshikou mSATA-to-IDE/PATA (the Lycom model ST-173-7 and/or ST-173-9) adapter in especially T42/p’s, and, if possible, also which one of these compatible mSATA SSDs are fastest? In order to gather as much information as possible about this, I have contacted the various manufacturers/resellers, and also a few of the users of this adapter, which I have been able to find contact-information to on the 'net. I’ve asked these resellers to kindly inform about all the "known-good" mSATA SSD’s, which are known for certain to function with no issues with the adapter (under Windows 7, with full TRIM-support), and also if there is any knowledge about mSATA SSD’s which are perhaps on the other hand known not to work with the adapter? The following is what I have been able to dig up so far; first the reply from the original manufacturer (who I believe is Lycom), and then the replies from the resellers:

A quick look in our lab, the following models have been tested and worked properly:

Innodisk: DRPS-32GJ11C1DN (32 GB)*)
Intel: SSDMCEAC120B3 (120 GB)**)
Plextor: PX-256M5M (256 GB)***)

The quick tests below were done on the KA790GX platform****), with Windows XP SP3 x86. See the following benchmarks:

For the Innodisk DRPS-32GJ11C1DN (32 GB):


For the Intel 525 SSDMCEAC120B3 (120 GB):


For the Plextor PX-256M5M (256 GB):


Regards,
Support Department,
LyCOM Technology, Inc.

*) (Johan’s note): I believe that this SSD is found here with a comprehensive datasheet found here. In the datasheet (on p.16) the sequential read speed for this (32 GB) model is claimed to be 109 MB/s while the sequential write speed is claimed to be 39 MB/s (for the mSATA SSD probably mounted directly in a SATA-PC). The (4k write) benchmarks reported by Lycom however falls way short of these specifications, and the above benchmarks are absolutely, completely surprising, ridiculously poor for a SSD?!?

**) (Johan’s note): This is the Intel 525 (the full “product specification” can be found here), which was launched in Q1/2013, in other words a relatively new SSD. Notice the outstanding benchmarks for this SSD recorded/reported by Lycom (for a mSATA SSD with a SATA-to-PATA adapter etc.)! Also, note the very low (claimed!) power consumption of only 300 mW (active), and 250 mW (idle). According to this Anandtech review (and this overview-table) the Intel-525 series are using the SandForce SF-2281 controller. If it was not because I have previously had so much trouble with the 1.8" Intel X18-M SATA SSD and the JM20330-based SATA-to-PATA based controller, I would not hesitate to go for the Intel 525… but… I can’t help ask myself how comphehensive Lycom did test the Intel 525 with their adapter; did they e.g. use it long enough to achieve complete confidence that it will without any doubt work, completely stable with the Lycom adapter?? That’s what I’m asking myself- and that’s why I am still hesitating a bit to just order the ‘525.

By the way, note the very fine benchmarks of the Intel 525 with the Lycom SATA-to-IDE/PATA adapter compared against the benchmarks from a SATA-modded T43p such as the one shown benchmarks for in this post: “Results from my [ajkula66’s] SATA-modded T43p (2.26GHz/2GB RAM/Intel X-25E SLC SSD)”… the Intel-525 with the Lycom SATA-to-IDE/PATA adapter is actually better on the average compared to the SATA-modded T43p with the top-notch SATA SLC SSD!

What’s also puzzling in relation to the Intel 525’s are the various boot-times reported for smaller or larger capacity SSD’s, see e.g. this comparison or this comparison. Normally I believe I have seen that the larger-capacity SSD’s were faster (at least in "pure-SATA" PC’s, with no PATA-to-SATA adapters etc.), so if going for an Intel 525, and seeking lowest boot-time then what capacity should be chosen? Spooky…!

***) (Johan’s note): The Plextor PX-256M5M uses the Marvell 88SS9187 controller; see e.g. the Storagereview.

****) (Johan’s note): I guess it must be this motherboard that they have used for their tests?

Note that the Lycom etc. adapter is available in two versions; a 7 mm high (ST-173-7) and a 9.5 mm (ST-173-9). Also note that the Lycom etc. adapter is sold (mainly in the Eastern Europe) as KOUWELL ST-173-7 … see e.g. the Youtube video: Kingston SMS200S360G mSATA SSD disk using KOUWELL ST-173-7 adapter. This Kingston SSDNow mS200 uses a LSI Sandforce 2241 controller. Its power consumption (idle: 0.4 W, read: 1.2 W ("typ."), and write: 1.8 W ("typ.")) is significantly higher than e.g. the Intel 525.

Thank you for contacting Aleratec Support.

Unfortunately, I do not have a published list of compatible mSATA SSD's that I can send you today. However I will put together something after discussing with our engineering team that I can send you sometime Tuesday.

I'm sorry the list isn't longer however so far here is what I have:

InnoDisk 32GB SATA II mSATA drive
Intel 525 Series 120GB SATA III mSATA drive
Plextor 256GB PX-256M5M SATA III mSATA drive

If there are any drives that you would like to know about please do let me know and I will try and work with engineering to get the drives qualified.

Please let me know.

Aleratec did not provide me with any benchmarks for the SSD’s mentioned. Note however that the above-mentioned "approved" drives by Aleratec are completely identical to those immediately reported by by Lycom – which in my interpretation indicate that the Aleratec’s "engineering team" is actually the supporters at Lycom!

Unfortunately there is no compatibility list for our hardware. For this reason, we can the requested information not provide.

In our tests became a Transcend MSA720 64 GB, mSATA 6 Gb/s (TS64GMSA720) used.

Yours sincerely,
Delock Support

The Transcend MSA720 (64 GB) is also a SF-2281 based SSD; brief specs. are found at Transcend’s site (choose “SATA III 6Gb/s mSATA (Ultimate)”) under P/N TS64GMSA720. Note the relatively high power consumption of this SSD; 2.97 W (active), 0.5 W (idle). I couldn’t find the full datasheet for this SSD, and I also can’t find any information about which ATA modes are supported?

I must say your message was quite amusing! I'll explain: Take a look at the product page here. By default you're looking at the overview tab. Scroll down to nearly the bottom of the page. Down there you will see an mSATA card being installed in the adapter, then the completed assembly being installed into a caddy and finally into my own personal T42p!

I tested this configuration using Fedora 19, and after the full installation was completed (including post-install setup and all updates applied), and including the extra time to get past my unit's fan failure screen (the CPU fan died about 10 years ago but the unit can still run 24/7 without ever overheating) and user login, I measured the time from power button to desktop-ready at around 20 seconds! That was with a very cheap, slow (1.5 Gbps), 32 GB mSATA card.

Unfortunately I can't specifically recommend a certain media, but I've been notified Addonics is planning on qualifying and offering some mSATA SSD devices very shortly. If you're willing to wait for that I can assure you I'll bring my T42p back in and let you know exactly what happened for me.

By the way, between my own experience with my T42p and other Addonics products that include the same SATA-IDE adapter chip, I can assure you there's little reason for concern for compatibility. I've used that chip with hard drives, DVD drives, CompactFlash cards, and mSATA (converted to IDE).

… followed up by this subsequent reply:

There's no real reason to wait, the media I tested the adapter with on my T42p were purely arbitrary and they worked great. We use that Marvell chip in some of our products and have had very little trouble with it. Either way I'll let you know as soon as I know myself.

I have been promised to hear when (/if) Addonics start offering specific mSATA SSD’s for use with their ADMS25IDE adapter.

In this page on the German ThinkPads forum mSATA-to-PATA adapters are also discussed, incl. the DeLock 62495 (= the Lycom ST-173-7) which has been used by galloper in two T42p’s. In reply to my questions ("Q" below) about the long-term experience with this DeLock mSATA-to-IDE adapter in his ThinkPad gallopher answered ("A"):

Dear Johan,

Thanks for your PN - I did not really expect somebody reads my post so in detail

In general, I'm really happy with the modification. At first I'll explain, that I'm running 2 T42p UXGA 15" at home for a long time now. One of these Laptops is running in somehow standard usage by my wife - 240GB SSD. The second Thinkpad runs now for approx 4…5 years as a weather station and media player and internet connection. This Laptop runs 24/7 connected. Hast 120 GB SSD. Both are upgrade with Crucial mSATA SSD, latest version (6 GBps) - and the DeLock Adapter.

Installation went very well - I was surprised how easy it was.

1) Q: What OS are you using/have you tried?
A: I've installed Win 7 Ultimate 32 bit - on both Thinkpads.

2) Q: What are your long-term experience with the DeLock 62495 and the different mSATA SSDs you know of; have your observed any peculiarities/abnormalities/stuttering/freezes or otherwise odd behavior etc. with any of these? Or: Has your setup perhaps on the contrary always functioned super-fast, purely perfectly with no issues at all?
A: There are only positive experiences - I did not experience any freeze or so - just as expected.

3) Q: Do you have any benchmarks e.g. in your T42 for any mSATA SSDs, such as e.g. from CrystalDiskMarks?
A: The Benchmark was done using HDTune. I reached approx. 80...85 Mbps data transfer rate. But the more important thing is, that there is much better feeling in the work with it - no more lagging in the "daily usage".

4) Q: Have you verified that your setup runs at full (ATA-5/UDMA-6) speed (= 133 MB/s in a T42p)? [some users cannot obtain full 133 MB/s throughput with the DeLock adapter and with some mSATA SSD's?! ... see e.g. this post and the subsequent posts by member JBUK in the same thread].
A: I don't know, how to test this - but I would check it, if you could tell how to do it?*)

5) Q: You mention that both you and your wife’s T42p are using Crucial mSATA SSD’s (a 120 GB and a 240 GB, of "latest version"). Are you able to say which specific models of the Crucial mSATA SSD’s these are? I guess these are of the Crucial M500-family and that the 120 GB is the CT120M500SSD3 and the 240 GB is the CT240M500SSD3 – is this correct?**)
A: Yes you are right, I've installed the SSD from M500 series - they came with latest firmware - no need to upgrade.

6) Q: Have you ever checked if TRIM is enabled/supported with your DeLock/Crucial setups? It’s very easy to verify; just issue the command: "fsutil behavior query DisableDeleteNotify" in an elevated command-prompt (see here). It will give you one of two results, either a 0 or a 1. A zero ("0") indicates that TRIM is enabled correctly, a one ("1") means that it is not.
A: I've tried your hint - the TRIM is enabled. The test showed a "0" as result. This (to my understanding) is the indicator, that it is working with TRIM. That also means, the degrading of the SSD is as low as possible.

Hopefully you could be as successful as I was and you will have much fun with this "renewed laptop".

Best regards, Hendrik

*) (Johan’s note): With respect to checking if the drives are indeed running at maximum speed in a T42p (which is "UDMA Mode 6" and "active mode" = ATA/133), that is very easy using "HD Tune"; just see the "Info" window there… an example is shown here. Observe what "Supported" says, and what "Active" says.

If it runs at a lower speed ("Active") compared to what is supported, the speed (I believe!) can be forced higher; see e.g. here or this page but I really don’t believe you will need to do anything… I am rather certain that your DeLock/Crucial setup already runs at maximum speed!

**) (Johan’s note): Datasheets for the Crucial/Micron "M500" mSATA SSD’s can be found here. These SSD’s are using the Marvell 9187 - Micron MLC controller (Marwell 88SS9187-BLD2). According to the Micron datasheet ("m500_msata_ssd.pdf") the M500 support the following ATA modes:

PIO mode 3, 4
Multiword DMA mode 0, 1, 2
Ultra DMA mode 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

… and hence not UDMA 6! It would be very interesting to find similar ATA/UDMA specifications for the other mSATA SSD’s mentioned in this thread!

In this Japanese blog-post a Japanese user, Krozkin, has reported his experience with the "Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9" (= Lycom ST-173-9) adapter in a (PATA-based) ThinkPad X31. Through the very friendly help of forum.thinkpads.com members Rupan and zobbo I managed to get hold of an e-mail address to Krozkin, who was very kind to reply very detailed back to me, about his experience etc. Here is what I received – as a reply to the experience with this adapter, and what mSATA’s that had been tried etc., again with my questions marked with "Q" and answers marked with ”A”:

Dear Johan.

Thanks for your question.

I tested some SSD for TP X31, so my interest only HPA recovery. Booting X31, push "Access Thinkpad" and GUI menu indication is excited me. (But windows xp is not useful so I have installed Windows 7 (HPA GUI menu is enable continuously).

Q: The main question is however this: What specific mSATA SSD should I get for best/fastest/most stable use with the KRHK-mSATA/I9?
A: Not tested. HPA recovery is not allowed condition, I have not tested SDD performance. Any SSD are faster than legacy HDD.

1) Q: ) What are your long-term experience with the combination KRHK-mSATA/I9 and the Intel 525 mSATA SSD, and also with the Plextor PX-128M5M setup; have your observed any peculiarities/abnormalities/stuttering/freeze's or otherwise odd behavior etc. with any of these? Or: Has your setup perhaps on the contrary always functioned super-fast, purely perfectly with no issues at all?
A: Any troubles are not happened for the moment. Super-fast? My interest is aimed for HPA.

2) Q: Do you have any benchmarks for these two setups, such as e.g. CrystalDiskMarks?
A: Benchmarks are not significant. I say repeating, SSD are fast sufficiently. But SSD (Intel, ADATA and Plextor) I tested, are not sold or in the trash-bin. If I get bench-marking time, do that (Super-Talent is rubbish. Taking off it from Thinkpad is too difficult. I do NOT install it again). Additional page (Plextor SSD only) --> Benchmarking PLEXTOR PX-128M5M+ on Thinkpad X31

3) Q: Have you verified that your setup runs at full (ATA-5 /UDMA-5) speed (= > 133 MB/s in a T42p) with both the Intel SSDMCEAC120B301 and with the Plextor PX-128M5M+? [some users cannot obtain full 133 MB/s throughput with the KRHK-mSATA/I9 adapter and with some mSATA SSD's?!?]
A: See additional page--> Benchmarking PLEXTOR PX-128M5M+ on Thinkpad X31
Using HDAT2.
Transfer mode: Max. supported Ultra DMA 6/ATA133
Transfer mode: Selected Ultra DMA 5/ATA100

4) Q: Does the HDD-LED work with the KRHK-mSATA/I9?
A: Yes. HDD access LED is enable. Blink correctly.

5) A: Have you tried other mSATA SSD's with the Kuroutoshikou adapter, or do you know of other people who have tried any other mSATA SSD's? If so, do you know their experience?
A: I do not try any SSD and/or IDE44-mSATA adapter. And any try, I don't know.

6) Q: What is/was the specific model-name of the Plextor mSATA SSD you have tried; PC-128M5M+ or PX-128M5M? (I cannot find any "PC-128M5M+" mSATA SSD's?)
A: PX-128M5M+ was. "+" is correct; see here and here. Country limitation model? No English information are found out.

Is this answer sufficient? Enjoy happy Thinkpad life!

Best regards.
- ..- . .
Krozkin

Final remark (a "related addition"?): Just stumbled over yet another adapter; Adapter SATA Seria A-ATA Festplatte an 2,5 Zoll IDE 44 Controller which looks to be identical to this: 2.5'' SATA Hard Drive Adapter to IDE ATA 44 Pin Cable (in the case that one or both of these eBay advertisement should "die"/dissapear, I've posted the relevant images here and here). By a quick glance it could seem to fit in a 15" T4x/p. The controller is the JMicron 20330 (I found this adapter first mentioned in this post to actually fit in the main T4x/p HDD-bay with a full-size 2.5" SATA drive!).

Long post, much info for readers to absorb, so all for now. I feel like having done a substantial amount of homework so far, but unfortunately I am still uncertain as to what specific mSATA SSD will be best (=fastest, completely stable) with my Addonics ADMS25IDE adapter, for use in my T42p under Windows 7? Aaaaargh!!

All educated and constructive feedback to the above is surely and kindly invited! Thanks in advance…

Johan

[automobus]

Good for you, Johan! I do not know why companies do not respond to my letters. I wrote to Aleratec, Koutech, Micro SATA Cables, CablesOnline, and MyDigitalSSD. None of them replied, not even with "a human later will reply" automatic response. I wanted to avoid Addonics, but I think I am willing to buy from them in the future. At least their support division responded to me, even if with lies.

In case you are not aware: Kouwell is Lycom. Not a whitewasher denier rebrander.

I finished editing my previous post.

[Johan]

Positive experience with using a mSATA SSD in the main-HDD bay in a T43, without the need for any SATA-modifications of the motherboard!

Yet another update about other user’s experience with the Lycom etc. adapter, and mSATA SSD's, in T4x/p ThinkPads:

As previously mentioned (in this post) a Japanese T43-owner could seem (“seem" because of the uncertainty associated with Google Translate!) to have reported success with using the Lycom/Addonics etc. adapter (in the Japanese version, the Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9) in a T43 (2668-KAJ), using a Plextor PX-128M5M mSATA SSD. In reply to my questions (“Q" below) about the actual user-experience etc. with this setup, I yesterday received the following answers (“A" below) from:

Dear Johan

To answer the question for the time being, but it's hard to understand because it can not be English, please forgive me.

1. Q: What operating systems have your tried/are you using in your T43 with the mSATA-to-IDE adapter and the mSATA SSD? Windows 7 and/or some Linux-distro?
A: Tried only Linux Mint16 (32-bit Mate Version)

2. Q: A very important question: Did you successfully manage to install the KRHK-mSATA/I9 adapter in the internal main-HDD bay in your ThinkPad T43 (2668-KAJ) with a mSATA SSD, and did you actually get this setup to run stable and with no problems at all?
A: KRHK-mSATA/I9 and the PX-128M5M installed internal main-HDD bay.

3. Q: What are your long-term experience with the combination KRHK-mSATA/I9 and the Plextor PX-128M5M setup; have your observed any peculiarities/abnormalities/stuttering/freeze’s or otherwise odd behavior etc. with any of these? Or: Has your setup perhaps on the contrary always functioned super-fast, purely perfectly with no issues at all?
A: Works with no problem with Linux Mint16.

4. Q: Do you have any benchmarks for your setup, such as e.g. CrystalDiskMarks?
A: Benchmark is only on the Linux, Average Read Rate 110MB/s, Average Write Rate 88 MB/s. T43's limit is about 150 MB/s (S-ATA 1st Generation)*)

5. Q: Have you verified that your setup runs at full (ATA-5/UDMA-6) speed (= 133 MB/s in a T42p) with the Plextor mSATA SSD [some users cannot obtain full 133 MB/s throughput with the KRHK-mSATA/I9 adapter and with some mSATA SSD's?!?]
A:I guess KRHK-mSATA/I9 and the PX-128M5M running at full performance.

6. Q: Does the HDD-LED work with the KRHK-mSATA/I9 in your T43?
A: HDD-LED works fine.

7. Q: Have you tried other mSATA SSD's with the Kuroutoshikou adapter, or do you know of other people who have tried any other mSATA SSD's? If so, do you know their experience?
A: Only tried with KRHK-mSATA/I9 and the PX-128M5M.

8. Q: What (as fast as possible!) mSATA SSD would you personally recommend for use with the KRHK-mSATA/I9 in a T42p, under Windows 7?
A: Sorry, I don't know. T42 is Intel 855PM, T43 is Intel 915PM with SATA-PATA Conversion. It looks like the same, but the contents are the different.

I recommend SSD with Marvell Controller! not reccomend Sand-Force and Samsung.

I'm sorry not accustomed to much power. Enjoy with your ThinkPad!

Thank you.

yfuj11@live.jp

*) (Johan’s note): See the benchmarks here and (especially) those recorded today and shown in the below reply.

In reply to an additional question from me, asking “yfuj11" to kindly and explicitly confirm whether the above actually did apply to the T43 (the 2668-KAJ) mentioned in the blog-post, I today received the following confirmation:

At first, I bought T43 in second-hand shop at the beginning of this year. It was 3000 yen in Japanese yen (about 30 dollars), because of no Windows OS recovery area.T43 seems powerless currently, I was decided to use Linux. So I don't use Windows OS in T43.

This is screenshot showing running on T43. Command "dmidecode" in terminal shows board information:



I think you'll believe no doubt unquestionably PX-128M5M works with T43/Linux Mint16.

Thanks for your reading my Clumsy English.

yfuj11@live.jp
Japan

(a bigger version of the above image can be found here). So, the above seems to confirm that the Lycom adapter, in the combination with the Plextor PX-128M5M mSATA SSD, is working without any issues in a T43, under Linux Mint16. As already noted, both the Lycom/ Kuroutoshikou etc. adapter uses a Marvell controller (the 88SA8052-NNC2), as does the Plextor PX-128M5M too (the 88SS9187). Seems as the united Marvell/Marvell combination is accepted in the pretty picky T43/p’s!

Final words: Kindly notice that I am here (“only") sharing the information that I have been able to dig up. Because of this I (of course!) cannot say anything about whether the same setup will, or will not, work more or less without problems, in a Windows-based T43. In any case, I think that the above is nevertheless interesting information/news for the Linux-T43/p’ers!

Users who are willing to try the Lycom-adapter with a Plextor PX-xxxM5M in a Windows-setup, in their T43/p’s, are certainly more than welcome to share their experience here!

Johan

[GACrabill]

Users who are willing to try the Lycom-adapter with a Plextor PX-xxxM5M in a Windows-setup, in their T43/p’s, are certainly more than welcome to share their experience here!

But, my guess is that Windows 7 with TRIM enabled will NOT run on a T43 with an mSATA SSD in an IDE adapter in the main HDD bay.

[Johan]

But, my guess is that Windows 7 with TRIM enabled will NOT run on a T43 with an mSATA SSD in an IDE adapter in the main HDD bay.

Well, Gary, this may, or may not, be true - but I am confident (or, at least: I hope!) that you will find the following information interesting:

Today, I received (completely unexpectedly!) yet another very friendly mail from yfuj11 (see my few prior posts here in this thread), who has just installed Windows 7 on a Plextor PX-128M5M mSATA SSD in his in a T43 (2668-KAJ), using the Kuroutoshikou KRHK-mSATA/I9 mSATA-to-IDE/PATA (= Lycom ST-173-9) adapter (and who have done this purely on his own initiative, and who are furthermore very friendly to share the results with us, albeit not participating on this forum); a mail...

Dear Johan

I tried install Windows7 on the T43 with reference to the bulletin board that you are participating.



God bless you!

yfuj11@live.jp
Japan

(a bigger version of the above image can be found here). What a helpful and enthusiastic ThinkPad'er, who have become inspired by this thread to help us shed light over the difficulties with putting a mSATA SSD in a T43/p, and running Windows 7 on this setup.

I have no more information than the above, so I know nothing about how easy or how difficult this Windows 7 mSATA SSD installation on a T43 was, and whether or not TRIM is enabled etc., and what other functions does work, or does nor work correctly. As often here on this forum, I am only sharing the information that I have, and hope that all you "out there" who are reading this, who have perhaps become inspired to go ahead with installing Windows 7 on your ThinkPad T4x/p's; that you folks will come forth an share your experiences (good as well as bad!) with the rest of us, here in the forum. Thank you in advance!

Johan

[Carltp]

Heh Guys?

See, I've got a couple tp 41s with possible hd problems and thinking really easiest and best solution is skip all the diagnosis and put in new hd and want to move to W7/Ubuntu dual boot soon anyway probably.

Trouble is I'm just too fried for this now though I was finding Johan's threads interesting from 2012 and now skipping forward to this excellent contribution and update. Information overload though, no time. Is there an easy "drop in" solution for this now? If so please spell it out. Otherwise just have to put in standard Pata 2.5 incher and forget it but that does seems stupid. And such ain't cheap either for durability it seems. $169 for western digital. Geez!

My current 40 gb is fine, (just research, read, little youtube) but many hours/day. Guess need more for hypothetical W7/Lubuntu dual or at least faster then 5400 rpm?

Ideally like to just ship laptop to someone and they send back with ssd and W7 but that's probably too expensive to dream about.

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts. Guess I'm terrible for glassing out here and not really absorbing this newest info.

[Xenomorph]

For my setup, it's sorta simple.

1) install Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 to the HDD in your T43

2) ensure TRIM is disabled (run "fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1")

3) get a nice mSATA SSD and mSATA to PATA adapter.

I got this mSATA to PATA adapter, $25:
http://www.shopaddonics.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=ADMS25IDE

Get an mSATA SSD.

Crucial M500 120GB mSATA SSD, $76:
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-120GB-mSA ... B00BQ8RFAI
(I've been using this one without any issue for several months)

Samsung 840 EVO 120GB mSATA, $100:
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electroni ... ref=sr_1_4
(pretty new, not sure how well it would work, but larger capacities have proven nice)

Mushkin 120GB mSATA (SandForce Controller), $90:
http://www.amazon.com/Mushkin-Direct-At ... =sr_1_cc_2
(I had trouble with this one, as using TRIM with it seemed to make it disappear to the system)

4) connect the mSATA SSD to the mSATA to PATA adapter

5) clone the Windows 7 install on HDD to the SSD

6) pop the mSATA SSD in your T43 and go!

[KrypteX]

I've been reading this *very* interesting thread for a while now. In parallel, I've been doing my own investigation on the SATA to IDE adapter JMicron JM20330, used so often, which I installed in a HP 2510p laptop with a "native" IDE controller (Intel ICH8M if I'm not mistaking). So I'll re-post, with your permission, my post from another forum, which might be of help in clearing up some of the confusion (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with my line of reasoning). So here we go:

I will quickly summarize from my experience and from what I've gathered around the web. The Sintech mSATA to ZIF adapter here: http://www.pc-adapter.net/products/656.html
has the JMicron JM20330 SATA to IDE bridge. The JM20330 chip, also found on other IDE-to-SATA adapters (mSATA, 1.8" and 2.5" versions) CAN pass TRIM correctly on the following SSDs:

Samsung PM810 mSATA or Samsung 470 1.8"/2.5" (same Samsung controller)
Samsung PM800 1.8"
Samsung 830 or PM830
OCZ Nocti firmware 2.15 (SandForce controller)
Kingston V+180 1.8" (actually a Toshiba HG3 SSD, most probably based on a Marvell controller)
Kingston V+ 100 2.5" (idem)
Crucial M4 / Micron C400, with firmwares 000F, 07MH (Marvell controller)
Plextor M5M (Marvell controller)
other SSDs (such as Lite-On) based on Marvell controllers
I personally had good results with the Samsung and Crucial/Micron SSDs.

On the other hand, I can confirm that JM20330 has problems with passing TRIM (freezes or BSOD) with the following SSDs:
OCZ Nocti firmwares 2.22 and 2.25
Intel X18-M or X25-M (Intel PC29AS21BA0 G2 controller) and Intel 320 (PC29AS21BA0 G3 controller)
One instance of Crucial M4 with unknown firmware (possibly 04MH)

So my general conclusion is that SandForce and Intel controller-based SSDs do not play well with the JMicron JM20330 bridge. This is probably due to the way in which these controllers (and their firmwares) try to pass TRIM from the OS to the bridge (somehow differently than, say, Samsung or Marvell controllers do).

Finally, to make it clear, the SandForce-based and the Intel SSDs with G2 and G3 controllers (be it mSATA, 1.8" or 2.5") have problems with TRIM on JM20330. On the other hand, the older Intel G1 version does not have issues, because the G1 controller itself does not support TRIM, similarly to a regular HDD.

Equally important, for those who want to send manual TRIM commands to the SSD under Windows XP (or any OS lacking native TRIM support), you can use the following software:
- Intel SSD Toolbox for the non-OEM Intel SSDs only
- Samsung SSD Magician for the non-OEM Samsung SSDs only
- the "Trigger TRIM" command in Anvil's Storage Utilities (free software) found here http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... -Utilities
- the "Optimize TRIM" tool in Solid State Doctor software (not free) found here http://www.lc-tech.com/pc/solid-state-doctor/

Hope this helps !

*Note 1: These TRIM issues are not linked, as some may think, to AHCI being on or off. TRIM is an ATA command and is not dependent on AHCI being enabled. So TRIM can work perfectly well on an IDE drive too, if the drive supports TRIM. From the motherboard's point of view, the [JM20330 bridge+SATA SSD] combo appears as a regular IDE drive and TRIM commands can be sent to it over the IDE connection if the bridge itself supports the ATA command TRIM.

So there is nothing mysterious about TRIM actually being passed over a regular IDE connection (btw, the Marvell IDE-SATA bridges 88SA8040 (SATA 1.5 Gb/s) and 88SA8052 (SATA 3.0 Gb/s), found in certain IDE-SATA optical caddies from Fenvi, pass TRIM perfectly well, irrespective of the mounted SATA SSD --- including Intel and SandForce-based SSDs).

*Note 2: It's obvious that the JMicron JM20330 IDE-SATA bridge does not support AHCI (in other words it works in IDE compatibility mode), that's why NCQ is turned off on a SATA SSD connected to this bridge (or any other IDE-SATA bridge for that matter). As a result the 4K performance is virtually equal in benchmarks irrespective of the Queue Depth employed (which would not be the case with a functional NCQ). One can always check that this is indeed the case with the performance of an SSD connected to any IDE-SATA bridge.

[Xenomorph]

I thought the TRIM issue wasn't so much an issue of the mSATA to PATA bridge not supporting or working with it, but the *double* bridge setup in systems like the T43.

I.e.: the "SATA to PATA to SATA" double-bridge caused the issues with TRIM.

With the Marvell drive I'm using now (Crucial M500), it simply caused terrible I/O (and system pauses) any time a TRIM command was issued.
With the SandForce drive I first used (Mushkin Atlas), it made the SSD completely disappear from the system.

[KrypteX]

I thought the TRIM issue wasn't so much an issue of the mSATA to PATA bridge not supporting or working with it, but the *double* bridge setup in systems like the T43.
I.e.: the "SATA to PATA to SATA" double-bridge caused the issues with TRIM.

Yes, the double-bridge certainly plays a role in the problems observed on T43, but what I wanted to point out, was that even on motherboards with *native IDE* controllers (i.e. integrated in the Intel ICH controller itself, for example) and a *single* IDE-SATA bridge (JMicron JM20330), the issue with TRIM not being passed correctly to the SSD is due to an incompatibility between the IDE-SATA bridge and the controller/firmware of the SSD.

Clearly, in my own tests with the JM20330 mSATA-to-ZIF adapter in HP Compaq 2510p (native IDE controller incorporated in the Intel ICH8M southbridge) the SandForce and Intel controller-based SSDs that I mentioned in my previous post were NOT working with TRIM enabled (constant freezes and sometimes even BSOD in Windows 7). My experience is that TRIM on Samsung and Marvell-based SSDs on JM20330, usually work flawlessly when connected to a laptop with native IDE port. As we all know, the T43 does NOT have a native IDE port, but the IDE port is generated via another (Marvell) bridge integrated on the mobo.

Note: I observed, however, a short/temporary, but noticeable slow-down when TRIM is enabled (Crucial M4 or Samsung PM810 mSATA SSD on JM20330), right after I delete a large amount of data (30+ GB) from Windows 7. Also, the drive activity LED lights up fully for at least 5-10 seconds during this time. This is clearly a sign of the "slowness" of the TRIM command doing its job through the IDE-SATA bridge.

If I use an OCZ Nocti (SandForce) or an Intel 310 mSATA SSD (G2 controller) instead of the Crucial M4 (Marvell), I get a full system freeze or even a BSOD when deleting the files (not even Windows can be installed on the Nocti/Intel without terrible freezes and several forced restarts). So there is obviously a certain TRIM-related incompatibility between some SSDs (certain SF and Intel controllers) and the JMicron JM20330 SATA-PATA bridge.

[Carltp]

1) install Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 to the HDD in your T43
2) ensure TRIM is disabled (run "fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1")
3) get a nice mSATA SSD and mSATA to PATA adapter.
4) connect the mSATA SSD to the mSATA to PATA adapter
5) clone the Windows 7 install on HDD to the SSD
6) pop the mSATA SSD in your T43 and go!

Thanks Xenomorph. But, why can't I install the OS directly to the SSD? The whole preinstall and clone could be difficult if HDD is bad. Guess if have to could get a cheapy of Amazon for 40 bucks. No idea how likely they are to work for awhile.

Moderator edit: Snipped excessive quoting, and moved Carltp's comment outside of Xenomorph reply.

[Xenomorph]

Thanks Xenomorph. But, why can't I install the OS directly to the SSD? The whole preinstall and clone could be difficult if HDD is bad.

I don't install directly to the SSD because of TRIM.

During install, Windows will run TRIM on the drive (which is known to possibly cause problems) - and you have no option for it to NOT do that.

On my SandForce drive, it caused it to disappear from the system during install.
On my Marvell drive, it caused Disk I/O to go crazy and performance to tank - installation took hours instead of minutes.

If you install to HDD, you can disable TRIM, then image that install to SSD.

Option A:
Install to HDD: ~30 minutes
Clone to SSD: ~30 minutes

Option B:
Install to SSD: hours of frustration, the device disappearing from the system, terrible performance, tons of Googling looking for a solution, etc.

[Johan]

On the other hand, I can confirm that JM20330 has problems with passing TRIM (freezes or BSOD) with the following SSDs:

Intel X18-M or X25-M (G2 controller) and Intel 320 (G3 controller)

<snip>

Thanks for all of your very interesting comments, KrypteX - much appreciated! I just stumbled across a related piece of information, about another apparently also "JM20330-incompatible" mSATA SSD; see this post where the Intel 525's seems unwilling to pass TRIM (I guess that the particular user, Rasmus Lundsgaard has installed Windows 7, but this is only my guess). By the way, I can confirm from own experience that both the Intel X18-M (G2's) and the Intel 320's 1.8" SATA SSD's are causing various problems under Windows 7, if used with the JM20330-converter... as discussed in this post. Anyway, I'd suggest readers of this thread to more focus on the ST663FD9 adapter (which is actually the initial subject of this thread!), and/or the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock/Kuroutoshikou adapter, also discussed in the above.

Thanks Xenomorph. But, why can't I install the OS directly to the SSD? The whole preinstall and clone could be difficult if HDD is bad.

I don't install directly to the SSD because of TRIM.

<snip>

Just a brief clarification here: User Carltp asks about how to upgrade a (couple of) T41p, which we know are purely PATA-based, as opposed to the T43/p's which Xenomorph are explicitly discussing in the recent previous posts; the T43/p's on the contrary having the internal PATA-to-SATA bridge, and therefore behaving differently compared to native-PATA laptops, such as the T40/p's, T41/p's and T42/p's. The consequence of this is, that - in e.g. the latter native PATA ThinkPad's - it is not necessary to follow the clone-approach outlined by Xenomorph; in T40/p's, T41/p's and T42/p's an OS, such as e.g. Windows 7, can be directly installed on a mSATA SSD, with no need to take the "clone-path".

Johan

[calico]

Looking to move onto a SSD on a T42 (2373K1U) with Windows 7. Does the voltage that the adapter draw off the board matter?

The reason I ask is because ST663FD9, according to this advertisement, takes out 3.3 V compared to Addonics ADMS25IDE (Lycom ST-173-7) according to this advertisement which shows 5 V

I would assume 3.3 V is better.

[automobus]

calico, read carefully.

PWM Power IC / 1.4MHz 5.5V synchronous buck converter
mSATA input voltage: 3.3V ±5%, input current: 3A

Information in this listing is just a copy of information on Minerva's Web site. The choice of words might have mislead you: this 2.5-inch formfactor module outputs 3.3 volt to mSATA slot. Both ST663FD9 and Lycom ST-173 draw 5 volt nominal from host PC.

[calico]

@automobus
Thank You for the clarification.

[coors]

I purchased a T41 recently. It's specs currently are 2 GHz CPU, 2 GB RAM, 60GB Hitaichi Travelstar loaded with Win XP, with all updates via regedit "hack", latest BIOS, etc. I bought this laptop because I needed a machine with rs232/9pin-serial support, via dock w/T4x, for loading maps to an older, 1999, Garmin GPS, which someone gave to me. I did the CPU, RAM and BIOS upgrades and I'm quite fond of this old Thinkpad already and have been reading the various SSD threads on this site, for T4x series, so I registered hoping to get answers to my mSATA SSD questions.

Today I ordered the "Aleratec mSATA SSD to High Speed 9.5mm 2.5" IDE SSD Drive", because I read that it is one of the good ones. I plan to buy a 256GB mSATA drive next. I've been looking at both the Crucial/Micron and Plextor brands. Do I have it right? Are these 2x brands the way to go for a 256GB mSATA drive, with my choice of mSATA to 2.5" IDE adapter? If so, then I'm leaning towards the Crucial brand, I read that they're a US based company and make a very good product. If this is correct, then my next issue is that I see some of these Crucial drives listed as M4 and some as M550. Which would be the right choice for my application? I do apologize for base questions, but I'm not very tech and this is my first Thinkpad, as well as my very first mods, to any computer.

By the way, my need for loading maps to the GPS is perfectly served by the Win-XP loaded Hitaichi Travelstar, so I intend to load Linux on the mSATA drive. I've read about "alignment", to get maximum efficiency from SSD drives. Is this "alignment" possible for Linux OS? If I understand correctly, alignment is simply formatting a drive? Again, more base questions. Thanks, for any insight that you can offer.

[ajkula66]

Welcome to the forum!

If so, then I'm leaning towards the Crucial brand, I read that they're a US based company and make a very good product. If this is correct, then my next issue is that I see some of these Crucial drives listed as M4 and some as M550.

Crucial and Micron are one and the same, but the former is a brand name for consumer products while the latter gets shipped to OEMs, at least for the most part. Please be advised that both M500 and M550 have been reported to run quite warm in the mSATA format. Plextor would be my preferred choice.

I've read about "alignment", to get maximum efficiency from SSD drives. Is this "alignment" possible for Linux OS? If I understand correctly, alignment is simply formatting a drive? Again, more base questions. Thanks, for any insight that you can offer.

Alignment does not equal formatting the drive. While aligning is most certainly possible in Linux, you'd have to choose a particular distro (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora...) and read up on the specific details on one of their forums.

Hope this helps.

[coors]

Thank you, for your reply. I really do appreciate it! Ok, then I'll look into the Plextor PX-256M5M and begin researching SSD/HDD alignment, for Xubuntu.

[ajkula66]

Thank you, for your reply. I really do appreciate it! Ok, then I'll look into the Plextor PX-256M5M and begin researching SSD/HDD alignment, for Xubuntu.

Actually, there's a newer/faster Plextor mSATA SSD available, here is the 256GB version.

[coors]

@ajkula66 Thanks, again, VERY much!!! Yes, I was looking at the older "SATA 5Gb/s" drives.

@Johan I read this thread before when the info didn't mean much to me, for lack of understanding. I just reread and kudos and a BIG thank you to you for your great drive and enthusism to aquire and share all of that info. Especially the non-T43p info, for my own specific need.

[ajkula66]

OK, end of this long post, but please share your recommendation of a “very-likely-to-work-with-no-problems” mSATA T42/p-SSD with the above-mentioned Addonics ADMS25IDE/Marvell adapter… thanks very much in advance!

FYI:

Addonics adapter + Samsung 810 128GB mSATA + Windows 7 Home with no tweaks so far on a somewhat sickly T42p (2378-DYU), decent results so far but it's only been a few hours since I've installed this setup.

Will post more details later on.

Moderator edit: More details about this endeavour is posted in the thread FS: Addonics mSATA to IDE adapter + Samsung 810 mSATA SSD.

[coors]

After much research on the various mSATA drives and seeing many problems, that may not even affect the already slow IDE connection, I decided to buy a used 24GB Intel 313 SLC mSATA drive to couple with an Aleratech adapter. If I can get this to work to my satisfaction then I'll use a Seagate 256GB SATA drive, via Ultrabay-Slim adapter, for storage. I have an external CD/DVD drive, when needed. I'm also planning to install Win-XP-Home on this drive, afterall. Does this combination, for a T41 by the way, seem sound or am I missing some serious details, here?

[ajkula66]

seem sound or am I missing some serious details, here?

XP is really not SSD-friendly...apart from that, you should be OK, although space will be small and the drive likely overly tight.

Good luck.

[automobus]

coors, your plan seems sound. Please report how many mounting screw holes are in your adapter. Though Aleratec did not reply to my question, I assume they are whitelabelling/rebranding LyCOM ST-173. ST-173 specimen which I tested (imported by lying Addonics) had sixteen holes: bottom and side, modern and pre-1998 locations. Pay attention to ThinkPad T41 BIOS firmware revision.

[GACrabill]

... I decided to buy a used 24GB Intel 313 SLC mSATA drive to couple with an Aleratech adapter. ... I'm also planning to install Win-XP-Home on this drive, afterall. Does this combination, for a T41 by the way, seem sound or am I missing some serious details, here?

The problems with Intel SSDs when using an IDE-to-microSata adapter and Win7 w/ TRIM have been discussed in this forum. The same problem may also exist when using Intel SSDs with an IDE-to-mSata adapter with Win7 w/ TRIM.

As long as you never plan to use TRIM with an Intel SSD connected to an IDE adapter, you will hopefully be okay.

I don't remember reading of anyone successfully using an Intel SSD with an IDE adapter.

[ajkula66]

The problems with Intel SSDs when using an IDE-to-microSATA adapter and Win7 w/ TRIM have been discussed in this forum. The same problem may also exist when using Intel SSDs with an IDE-to-mSATAadapter with Win7 w/ TRIM.

As long as you never plan to use TRIM with an Intel SSD connected to an IDE adapter, you will hopefully be okay.

I don't remember reading of anyone successfully using an Intel SSD with an IDE adapter.

I'd venture a guess that the aforementioned issue is related to SandForce controller, and not to the Intel drives per se.

The 313 does not sport a SF controller.

[GACrabill]

The problems with Intel SSDs when using an IDE-to-microSata adapter and Win7 w/ TRIM have been discussed in this forum. The same problem may also exist when using Intel SSDs with an IDE-to-mSATA adapter with Win7 w/ TRIM.

As long as you never plan to use TRIM with an Intel SSD connected to an IDE adapter, you will hopefully be okay.

I don't remember reading of anyone successfully using an Intel SSD with an IDE adapter.

I'd venture a guess that the aforementioned issue is related to SandForce controller, and not to the Intel drives per se.

The 313 does not sport a SF controller.

I don't think SandForce had anything to do with the problems of not being able to get any of the Gen.1, Gen.2, or Gen.3 Intel 1.8" microSATA drives to work with Win7 w/ TRIM thru an IDE adapter.

I believe that all of those drives were not using SandForce.

[ajkula66]

I don't think SandForce had anything to do with the problems of not being able to get any of the Gen.1, Gen.2, or Gen.3 Intel 1.8" microSATA drives to work with Win7 w/ TRIM thru an IDE adapter.

I believe that all of those drives were not using SandForce.

Well...the first generation doesn't support TRIM to begin with.

Second generation supports it - with known issues - presuming firmware 02HD or higher.

Can't say anything about the third generation, though. Will look into it when I get a chance which is not going to be anytime soon.

[automobus]

Although Marvell 88SA8052 is not a perfect hypothetical ideal device, according to KrypteX, Intel flashdiscs get along with 88SA8052. KrypteX's statement probably related to devices which integrate PC29AS21BA0. SSD 313 Series contains PC29AS21BA0.