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Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

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Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#1 Post by dr_st » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:23 pm

Like all Thinkpad keyboards for as long as I remember, the Thinkpad 25 utilizes scissor-switch technology. The two parts of the switch are attached to the keyboard backplate (on opposite sides), and to one another (in the center) by a pair of pins on the inner part, and a pair of matching holes on the outer part. This creates a hinge; when the keycap is attached to the top of the switch, it creates upward force on each of the two parts simultaneously, and the pins holding them together force an interlocked scissor-like equilibrium, keeping the keycap raised above the backplate until the key is pushed down.

As the keys are small, and all the parts (switch, pins, hooks) are thin plastic, removing the keycaps (typically for cleaning stuck debris) must be done with care. A reasonable amount of force needs to be applied to separate the cap from the switch, but it should be applied at the correct place and in the correct direction to avoid breaking anything. There is typically one correct direction, from which the keycap should be pried, carefully, using something approximately as wide as the key itself, like a fingernail, or a large flat screwdriver tip. This ensures that the hooks are separated from both corners, and no excessive force is applied to a single corner, which would cause something to twist and snap. Personally, I prefer to never use any tools but my fingernails, as it gives me more precise control.

So, applying any kind of diagonal force is out, but it's not enough: there is usually a single correct direction from which the keycap separates from the mechanism and comes off easily, whereas from another direction it requires more force, which leads to one of two outcomes: the switch mechanism comes off with the key (sometimes requiring delicate reassembly) or, even worse, something will snap (typically one or two of the pins holding the two switch parts together). The fact that the switch mechanisms differ slightly from keyboard to keyboard, and even between different keyboard manufacturers within the same laptop line, make it a delicate process, sometimes involving careful trial and error.

Unfortunately, when I needed to clean some crap stuck inside my Thinkpad 25 keyboard a couple of weeks ago, I made a mistake and tried to pry the cap of from the wrong direction; when it came off, I didn't realize at first that I broke the pins, although in hindsight it should have been obvious. Before I knew better, I broke a second key in the same manner. :(

Fortunately, I got a spare keyboard, and since there is a single manufacturer of keyboards for the TP25, the mechanism is the same, and I was able to simply transplant it without taking the laptop itself apart. In the process I learned a good deal about the scissor switches on this particular keyboard, and decided to document it with pictures and share, as it might prevent other owners from making the same blunders. Also, since many laptop keyboards are built around the same principles, this know-how can be partly applied to other systems as well.

My TP25 has the US layout, but the spare keyboard is the UK layout; here it is:
Image

Since not all keys are the same size, the underlying mechanisms are also different. I counted 10 distinct types: regular key (square), small key (functions / arrows), vertically enlarged key (Esc/Delete), several types of horizontally enlarged keys (Tab/CapsLock/Shifts/Backspace) and the Spacebar. On the UK (ISO) keyboard, the Left Shift and Left Ctrl are the same, and the Enter is a very special L-shaped key, enlarged both horizontally and vertically. On a US (ANSI) layout, the Left Shift is slightly longer than the Backspace and the Enter is the same as Left Shift:
Image--------------------------Image
Image
  • Most keys (standard and small) have a single top-bottom scissor switch
  • Esc and Del have a larger and 90-degree rotated left-right scissor switch
  • The switches are held to the backplate via 4 small hooks - 2 hooks for each part
  • Most of the larger keys have, in addition to these hooks, pairs of metal brackets, with hooks of their own that are inserted into special "ears" on the backplate, while the long part of the bracket is attached to hooks in the keycaps; this makes it possible for the key to depress along its entire surface, even if you press down only on one side.
  • Exceptions are the space bar (which has four brackets), the ISO enter (which has three), and the Caps Lock (which has only one; I believe it's to avoid interference with the Caps Lock LED)
  • Most of the larger keys also use two scissor switches instead of one.


Here are the bottom sides of the different keycaps with some of the brackets attached:
Image

Below, marked with left circles are the locations of the tiny clasps at the bottom of the keycaps, which snap onto the switch as you push the key down. Be careful not to break them, or the key may not attach well; fortunately, they are sturdier than they seem and are unlikely to break unless you twist them. The L-shaped Enter has the most complicated system of brackets, so they have additional guides on the backplate to keep them in proper place; these are marked with red circles.
Image--------------------------Image

So what did I do wrong when taking the keys apart? Simple. The correct direction for prying the caps for almost all keys on the TP25 keyboard is from the top; this applies to all keys, except the Esc/Del, which have the scissor switch rotated, and so it should be pried from the left; the key cap will come rather easily, and the mechanism will most likely stay in place (and even if it gets displaced slightly, nothing will likely break). However, prying a key from the bottom (or right, for Esc/Del) is likely to break both pins of the scissor switch, which is what happened to me.

Pictures of what's correct and what's incorrect:
Image Image
Image Image

Below are the two switch parts when they are intact (left) and with the pins broken (right). The orientation shown is the correct one for reattaching to the backplate, should you ever need to do it.
Image

Things are a bit trickier with the spacebar and its 4 metal brackets, each attached via multiple clasps. To remove the spacebar the best I can advise is to exercise a good deal of patience - pry a little from the top, on both edges to disconnect the brackets from the clasps, then from the bottom, then from the top, and repeat until all the clasps are disconnected and the cap comes off.

It may happen that one or both of the pins pop out of their holes as shown below:
Image

If the mechanism itself is still attached to the backplate, you can carefully guide the pins back into the holes with a tiny precision screwdriver, as demonstrated. You should hold the outer part of the switch down with your finger while guiding the pins (not pictured, since I had to use the other hand to hold the camera).
Image

What happens if the scissor switch disconnects from the backplate? Well, if the pins are not broken, reattaching it is not so difficult.

First, if the two pieces are disconnected, carefully guide the pins of the inner piece into the holes of the outer piece. Note that the inner piece should go over the outer piece at the top, not under it. If you are not sure which side faces bottom (towards the backplate) and which faces up - try to locate tiny circles with small numbers/letters printed on the plastic pieces - this is the top side.
Image Image

Next, hook the inner piece around the "teeth" at the bottom of the key, and finally hook the outer piece around the teeth at the top (by gently pressing down). The order is important:
Image

Verify that the switch is firmly in place, align the keycap and gently press down until all clasps catch.

Things are a bit more complicated when you need to install one of the large keys with the metal brackets. It may be possible to first attach the bracket to the keycap, and then try to slide it into the "ears" as you press the keycap down, but what worked well for me is to simply align the brackets in the innermost position, before snapping the cap on top of them, as shown below:
Image
With the large Enter this is less of a problem because of the extra guides on the backplate (as shown above)

Finally, what do you do if you break one of the switches as I did, and need to transplant a good one from a donor keyboard? To disconnect it from the backplate, you can once again use a small precision screwdriver, and carefully pry up the hooks of the outer piece (essentially reversing the order of installation operations). Once those are unhooked, the switch should come off easily (often with both pieces still connected).
Image

BONUS: This is how the keycaps behave if they sit on a broken switch (with the inner and outer piece not connected) - they are still firmly attached, but wiggle:
Image
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#2 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:30 pm

Do you want a PHd in keyboard key removal now? :lol:

Great write up!
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#3 Post by shawross » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:10 pm

Good write up with detailed pics.

You aren't the first to break those tiny pins and unfortunately you won't be the last.

I have been there in my keyboard cleaning endeavors. :(
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#4 Post by olex126 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:22 am

Such a superb write-up, description and pics that this post should be made a "Sticky"! :bow:

Mods?

Regards.

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#5 Post by dr_st » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:56 am

I could certainly make it ''sticky", but is it really worth it? The idea didn't even cross my mind while I was writing it up.

Since it's my own topic, let someone else decide. :)
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#6 Post by Saucey » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:38 am

Great guide, this will help me when I'll snag a T25 at a discount when it becomes obsolete. :)
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#7 Post by axur-delmeria » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:04 am

Saucey wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:38 am
Great guide, this will help me when I'll snag a T25 at a discount when it becomes obsolete. :)
In five to ten years perhaps? :lol:
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#8 Post by Saucey » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:04 am

axur-delmeria wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:04 am
In five to ten years perhaps? :lol:
Maybe I'll be able to afford one within four years. :oops:
But I've heard the keyboard feels a lot better than a X300 so I'll have to find out til then.
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#9 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:35 am

Saucey wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:04 am
Maybe I'll be able to afford one within four years. :oops:
But I've heard the keyboard feels a lot better than a X300 so I'll have to find out til then.
I'm not even hoping to find one in my country, if that's any consolation. :cry:
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#10 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:13 am

Saucey wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:04 am
But I've heard the keyboard feels a lot better than a X300 so I'll have to find out til then.
Seriously? For some reason I just can't believe that to be true.
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#11 Post by dr_st » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:00 pm

It definitely feels more firm (but with shorter travel) than most Thinkpad keyboards I've tried (CS05 and CS09, as well as the old A2x/X3x ones). The X300 keyboard may be a bit different, but probably sits somewhere in between; so I can believe that one might find the TP25 keyboard feel superior (depending on personal taste in keyboards).

Among those I tried, the only keyboard which may be comparable in firmness (but with longer key travel) is the T4x keyboard.
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#12 Post by DaddyLongLegs » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:46 pm

Is there any place to order the scissor switches for the T25? Or is it compatible with some older Thinkpad keyboard scissor switches?

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#13 Post by lulujyc » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:12 am

IMO the T25 keys feel worse compared to classic (before **30) keyboards due to its shorter key travel... Well, still far better than chiclets though. Don't expect too much if you're looking for a keyboard that has the same feeling with classic ones -- just buy T420s w/ 3615qe and an NMB keyboard then.
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#14 Post by zmurf » Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:51 am

DaddyLongLegs wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:46 pm
Is there any place to order the scissor switches for the T25? Or is it compatible with some older Thinkpad keyboard scissor switches?
I would also like to know this. I have a broken hinge for my B key.

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#15 Post by deickos » Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:29 am

indeed great guide thanks

but this 25 kb should be something like the t420 one, which compared to older ones - x61t, or even t43 that are quality and feel great - is very very bad...
you cannot for example damage the switches in older kbs just by trying to remove them, like what happened to the 25 one (or the t420 kb)
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#16 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:43 am

deickos wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:29 am
but this 25 kb should be something like the t420 one, which compared to older ones - x61t, or even t43 that are quality and feel great - is very very bad...
you cannot for example damage the switches in older kbs just by trying to remove them, like what happened to the 25 one (or the t420 kb)
You can (I personally broke an NMB switch on my T42 keyboard once), but you have a wider margin of error there - that's true.

It is probably one of the effects of making the keyboard thinner.

As far as feel goes - despite the shorter stroke depth, I find the Thinkpad 25 keyboard quite good, second only to the T4x keyboard, and generally more pleasant to type on than any A, X series, T6x, or CS09 keyboards. It gives very firm feedback and is not mushy.
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#17 Post by Kocane » Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:30 am

I hope you can share your knowledge to help me find out what is wrong with my enter key, because seemingly it seems not to be broken anywhere.

I have some pics here:
https://i.imgur.com/t6BSYOP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wb0aBon.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vR4E2gQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/haAX3z9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ew74Una.jpg (on this pic my scissors seem flatter than when shown on your pics?)

I think the initial trouble began when the key was pressed too hard, so the bottom part, when pressed, does not make the entire key go down. I tried to remove the key, perhaps a bit incorrectly (because sadly I didn't expect anyone to have made such a good writeup as you've done here) but seemingly it survived. The top scissor feel off but I was able to attach it correctly again, I think.

I've made a video here showing what happens when pressed:
https://imgur.com/eGvnd9G

Any idea? Would be appreciated.

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#18 Post by dr_st » Sat Nov 11, 2023 5:05 pm

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear about the problem with your Enter key.

In this picture - are the clasps circled broken or not? I could not tell with certainty from the image.

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#19 Post by Kocane » Sat Nov 11, 2023 6:19 pm

Thanks! and thanks for getting back so quick.

I took a couple of higher quality pics (hopefully):
https://i.imgur.com/OBN5oyt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/afDd1fC.jpg

Still maybe a bit hard to see but they seem intact according to my eyes but maybe a bit of em are missing?

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#20 Post by dr_st » Sun Nov 12, 2023 4:47 am

Seems OK, except the back one in this picture I'm still not 100% sure about.
Kocane wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2023 6:19 pm
ttps://i.imgur.com/afDd1fC.jpg
But it looks like it's there.

When you push down the Enter key to attach onto the backplate, can you verify that all the clasps snap correctly around the metal rods?

Does the key wiggle up and down at all when you are not trying to press it down? (like the broken keys in the bottom photo of my first post)
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#21 Post by Kocane » Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:31 am

Yep, it does look like that. And yeah from what I can see the top and bottom rods clipping onto the bottom and following it when it goes up and down.

The vertical rod I tried to attach to the button first and then guided it into the holes before I clicked the other two.

It doesnt wedge up and down no. I just cant see anything broken. I dont get whats causing this.

What part of the key is it that would make sure the entire thing goes down when the bottom part of the key is pressed?

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#22 Post by Kocane » Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:50 pm

Ok, I broke both some small clips on the enter key and one of the small hooks on the white plastic things so its looking hopeless... doesnt help that this keyboard is so hard to get. :(

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#23 Post by dr_st » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:00 pm

Sorry to hear that. :(

Yes, this keyboard is rare. Not sure if counterfeit knock-offs are available.

There is one eBay seller in Poland who claims to sell individual keys and hinges for the TP25. Never used their services myself, but might be worth to try to contact them with an inquiry...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165903530509
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#24 Post by Kocane » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:21 pm

dr_st wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:00 pm
Sorry to hear that. :(

Yes, this keyboard is rare. Not sure if counterfeit knock-offs are available.

There is one eBay seller in Poland who claims to sell individual keys and hinges for the TP25. Never used their services myself, but might be worth to try to contact them with an inquiry...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165903530509
Are the chinese ones actual knock-offs? It's such one, that I bought (I'm modding it onto a T480).

But sadly - and I've contacted all sellesr I could find on AliExpress - the stock seem depleted and they only had Japanese left.

I'll try and contact the guy on eBay, worth a shot. Still a bit lame that my keyboard is probably a knockoff.

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#25 Post by dr_st » Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:52 am

Kocane wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:21 pm
Are the chinese ones actual knock-offs? It's such one, that I bought (I'm modding it onto a T480).
That's the thing - I don't know. I know that several years ago, knock-offs for older / more common Thinkpad keyboards have become widespread. They are of inferior quality typically, but they work. The TP25 is a unique model, and the keyboard only fits that one model, so I am not sure the market for it is large enough to justify someone starting up a knock-off business.
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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#26 Post by TPFanatic » Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:15 pm

The Nordic ISO I bought on aliexpress seems legit. It came with a low profile cats tongue that I've reused onto a 6-row. I believe they're legitimate leftover old stock. But I think the US-ANSI is dried up, along with power button FPC cables.

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Re: Thinkpad 25 keyboard keys removal/reattachment guide - *LARGE PICS*

#27 Post by Kocane » Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:57 pm

dr_st wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:52 am
Kocane wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:21 pm
Are the chinese ones actual knock-offs? It's such one, that I bought (I'm modding it onto a T480).
That's the thing - I don't know. I know that several years ago, knock-offs for older / more common Thinkpad keyboards have become widespread. They are of inferior quality typically, but they work. The TP25 is a unique model, and the keyboard only fits that one model, so I am not sure the market for it is large enough to justify someone starting up a knock-off business.
That's what I've been thinking; way too niche to make knockoffs of.

The keyboard I got actually has a bent around the trackpoint keys, which made it hard to install (probably where I somehow got the ENTER button damaged, still don't get how though). Seller was willing to refund or replace but like I mentioned only JP ones were apparently available by now. All other sellers with "Nordic T25 keyboards" on AliExpress also said there's only japanese left. But "my seller" - just before I was to get a refund - got back to me and said his other supplier apparently has inventory of FR layout keyboards. So that's promising. I normally don't mind the language/symbols on the keys so much but I'd like using the nordic ones. Swapping all the relevant keys over does seems a bit scary, even with your guide. :\
TPFanatic wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:15 pm
The Nordic ISO I bought on aliexpress seems legit. It came with a low profile cats tongue that I've reused onto a 6-row. I believe they're legitimate leftover old stock. But I think the US-ANSI is dried up, along with power button FPC cables.
Sadly, the nordic stock also seems dried up. I managed to get on of those power button cables recently, but god darn was it pricy. It was the last part I was missing though, I would've probably never bothered with this mod on an already aging laptop had I known lol.

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