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 Post subject: T60 random freeze *PIC*
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Posts: 46
Location: Baltimore, MD
I bought my T60 certified used from IBM over a year ago. I added ram (crucial) and kept the defunct/broken battery it came with since it almost never leaves it's spot, in addition to a larger hdd. I've run GNU/Linux on it the whole time.

A couple months ago the fan was obviously failing, so bought a replacement on ebay. It was obviously a chinese fan but it works fine. It fit fine and runs fine. I'm essentially A+ certified (straight As in prep courses just haven't taken proctored exam) and have performed the upgrade responsibly. While I was at it I replaced the thermal putty and the cpu paste with artic silver. I thought I was good to go.

So this problem still persists. I'm getting random freezes. At first I thought it was the battery. Research suggested that people have ruled this out. Tried it anyway. Running off AC I got the freeze. I thought it was Debian's fault. Nope. Tons of Windows users with the same problem. Did sensor checks and log checks. Thank god my beloved Debian stable is not to blame. memtest86 seemed fine.

I have still yet to find any reliable solution. I've done every thing I can besides updating the BIOS and checking for any sort of ROM firmware updates from Lenovo. Insert non-productive expletive frustrations here...

Does anyone have any recommendations? The warranty is over and I need a machine that can handle compilation, HTML5/Flash, and other high intensity tasks without freezing.


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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:46 pm 
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RBS10000
RBS10000

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Posts: 13615
Location: Mt. Cobb, PA USA
Welcome to the forum.
Before beginning with suggestions, what is the exact type of your machine?
There's a sticker on the bottom that looks like:
TYPE 2007-CTO S/N L3-12345 06/08
PRODUCTID 200746U
What does it say on yours? (we don't need the S/N).

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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:43 pm 
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ThinkPadder
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:51 pm
Posts: 1573
Welcome to the forum!
What you describe is more common than it should be. All the "proper" CPU thermal paste, etc., will not mitigate the issue with thermal pads which are not right. I have seen the issue you describe multiple times, and the only reliable solution is to use a brand new heatsink/fan assembly with brand new pads.

There should be no "magic" around this matter, yet using a new heatsink/fan with pre-mounted thermal pads seems to solve the problem reliably every time, whereas re-working the existing heatsink/fan assembly yields unreliable results no matter how well and how carefully one prepares it.

You say you bought an eBay fan. If you bought just the fan, then indeed you have to also replace the heatsink assembly. If you bought a full assembly, and if it was used rather than new, then there you have it ... replace with a new assembly and you will discover that problem is solved.


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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:13 pm 
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zenlunatic wrote:
I bought my T60 certified used from IBM over a year ago. .............................>>Does anyone have any recommendations? The warranty is over and I need a machine that can handle compilation, HTML5/Flash, and other high intensity tasks without freezing.


From Memory I think I had the SAME ISSUES on my old old T60 (2007xxx) model..... and even after major hardware replacements by IBM @ that time (bought at t60p release)......I ended up CLONING the 'factory HD > which at that time was Hitachi> .... and AWALH ! > did the trick ! > and t60 never missed a beat !

just my 0,02c worth ...........but then there are lots more 'experts' of TP here !!
hope this hint is of some help !

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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Location: Baltimore, MD
I'm sure I did a professional job replacing said components. I bought premium thermal pads and paste and made sure things were contacted properly before finishing up. Nothing changed... At first I considered someone was targeting my system because you security folks know that some scans/payloads can freeze your system. My next guess was my OS setup. Debian seemed okay. Then I search and there are multiple threads about T60 freezing (obviously more Windows users). I know my battery was shot and some people mentioned battery firmware as an issue. Took battery out. Freeze again. Confirm battery was not the issue after several posts about removal. Multiple unsolved threads.

I suppose all I can do is take apart this apart once again. Like I said, I'm essentially A+ and I bought premium components and multiple thickness thermal pads and confirmed connection on both sides on all chips using pads before rebuilding everything. I even wore gloves and cleaned connections with a hardware cleaner, admittedly unnecessary.

Seems like every time I find some hardware I like there is some nuance which robs me of my sanity.

Oh and it's a T60 2008-N21 with upgraded 2x2GB crucial ram (straight from crucial) and an larger hdd, both self-installed.

There is no way I'm paying $40 for a new heatsink/fan assembly to replace a non-broken one, on a whim of there being insufficient proximity. The OEM thermal paste (that I replaced) was so poor anyway I have little belief that this would be beneficial. I only payed like $400 a couple years ago. You can just replace the fan. I did it and I might even have pictures.


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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:38 pm 
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ThinkPadder
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Posts: 1573
zenlunatic wrote:
... There is no way I'm paying $40 for a new heatsink/fan assembly to replace a non-broken one ...
Non-broken does not imply that it is good! I bet you have FRU #41V9932 rather than the newer FRU #41W6407. That difference alone is sufficient to run the machine up to the edge of performance for the 41V9932 part. You would be well-served to use 41W6407. See below:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Location: Baltimore, MD
I set up a log for my sensors so I'm going to try to replicate the failure and see if I can derive anything useful.


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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:51 pm 
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ThinkPadder
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:51 pm
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To beat a dead horse some more:
Perhaps you know that heat pipes are more than copper metal, and that it is unlikely that one can tell visually if a heat pipe is operating as a heat pipe rather than a dumb metal conductor, i.e., it is not obvious that the part is, as you put it, "non-broken".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe


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 Post subject: Re: T60 random freeze
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Posts: 46
Location: Baltimore, MD
http://i.imgur.com/4dIGm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sdc46.jpg

Image

After connecting and discovering the smaller pad wasn't thick enough, I put the thicker on and added a little more silver than is shown.

Admin edit: Changed first two images to links; allowing last one. Try to keep image posting to ~50KB.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Location: Baltimore, MD
Oh, I also replaced the metal tape.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Location: Baltimore, MD
EOMtp,

I just confirmed I have the FRU #41W6407 so we can rule that out.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:41 pm 
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ThinkPadder
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zenlunatic wrote:
I just confirmed I have the FRU #41W6407 so we can rule that out.
I agree -- your pictures show that that's what you have. Perhaps it's not a thermal issue after all.

If you have not done so already, lift the processor from its socket, reinsert it, and lock it in place. Won't hurt, and may help -- stranger things have happened ...


Last edited by EOMtp on Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:43 pm 
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Location: Baltimore, MD
Took some pictures of my heat pipe if you guys want to see them.
:|


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:44 pm 
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All I can do now is try to replicate a crash with logging... I'm at a loss...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:45 pm 
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Should I upgrade my BIOS? I might start messing with that even though it seems to be a higher order problem.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:48 pm 
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ThinkPadder
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It's not BIOS.
You may have an intermittent SATA socket. See if securing the drive in place, i.e., making it immobile by eliminating all "play", eliminates the hangs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:28 pm 
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RBS10000
RBS10000

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
Posts: 13615
Location: Mt. Cobb, PA USA
ThinkPad T60 (2008-N21)
Based on 2008-GDU: T7200(2GHz), 1GB RAM, 60GB 5400rpm HD, 14.1in 1024x768 LCD, 64MB ATI Radeon X1300, CDRW/DVD, Intel 802.11abg wireless, Modem, 1Gb Ethernet, UltraNav, Secure chip, 6c Li-Ion batt, WinXP Pro
Your machine is at the lower end of the 'food chain'.
Overheating is/was also my first thought.
Have you got a utility to measure temperatures, like TP Fan Control http://www.staff.uni-marburg.de/~schmitzr/donate.html
What are temps just before it freezes?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:01 am 
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It just froze at 56 C... I just don't get it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:25 am 
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Test the cpu maybe? There is an Intel test tool, I'll post a link when I get to work.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:32 am 
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RBS10000
RBS10000

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:17 am
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Location: Mt. Cobb, PA USA
Yes, trying another CPU might help.
Also, any yellow or red warnings/alerts in the Event Logs?
Control Panel/Administrative Tools/Event Viewer

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Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)

Check out The Board Room for:
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- SATA-mods for any T43/R52 with ATI GPU
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:04 am 
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thorcik wrote:
Test the cpu maybe? There is an Intel test tool, I'll post a link when I get to work.

Is it the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool you are perhaps thinking of? Is it better (more thoroughly) compared to the Lenovo Bootable PC-Doctor for DOS tool? (which you may find a download link to in the thread T60 graphics card seems to have died. How to make sure? and more precisely in this post - maybe worth to try it out?)

One thing which just crossed my mind was whether you (the OP) have thoroughly tested your RAM? Although it is high-quality Crucial it might (?) potentially be seated slightly loose (?), or it may have the connectors slightly dirty... which could have some impact on the overall stability. I once had a T60 very similar to yours that had a dirty RAM-block (dirty connectors). After carefully cleaning the freezing-issue went away! I know from another event that a loose stick of RAM could cause the same behaviour. Consider getting the free RAM-tool test-SW Memtest86+ and allow it to run for several hours.

Best of luck with fixing this very annoying issue! :evil:

Johan

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IBM T42 (2373-N1G): 1.8 GHz, 15" SXGA+ FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 64 MB Radeon 9600, 64 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:39 am 
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Johan wrote:
Is it the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool you are perhaps thinking of? Is it better (more thoroughly) compared to the Lenovo Bootable PC-Doctor for DOS tool?

Yes, that's the one. I can't compare it to PC Doctor as I've never been forced to use it ;)

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T60/T61 2637-AB6/8895-W4M, UXGA, T9300, 8GB RAM, Vertex3, Intel WiFi Link 5100
R61 7649-W1Z, T7250, Intel 4965


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Quote:
Please contact your local Intel Customer Support to get the bootable version of Intel® Processor Diagnostic Tool.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with these folks?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Apparantly PC Doctor is dead and Lenovo's new tool doesn't support T60.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:26 pm 
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zenlunatic wrote:
Apparantly PC Doctor is dead and Lenovo's new tool doesn't support T60.

Did you actually care (??) to check the link which I (very kindly!) just pointed you to?? I am having no difficulties in downloading it, and yes, it does indeed support T60's.

Johan

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IBM T42p's (2373-Q1U & -Q2U): 2.1 GHz, 15" UXGA FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 128 MB FireGL T2, 128 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate
IBM T42 (2373-N1G): 1.8 GHz, 15" SXGA+ FlexView, 2 GB RAM, 64 MB Radeon 9600, 64 GB 1.8" SATA SSD, IBM a/b/g, BT, Win 7 Ultimate


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Yeah I'm burning it now. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:01 pm 
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PC Doctor PASSED every unit


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:14 am 
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Which just means you've got to dig deeper...I've seen terminally ill ThinkPads that had passed every test with flying colours...

I'd love to guide you, but all of the stuff that I torture my machines with is Windows-based...

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Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

Running Linux while collecting SSDI: A31p, T42p

Abused daily: R60F, R500F, T60, T61, T410

For sale: T601 QXGA FrankenPad


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Please share. They make this thing called WINE, which lets me run Windows binaries.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:53 pm 
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For starters:

http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=103/

http://freestone-group.com/video-card-s ... y-test.htm

Good luck.

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...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

Running Linux while collecting SSDI: A31p, T42p

Abused daily: R60F, R500F, T60, T61, T410

For sale: T601 QXGA FrankenPad


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