Advanced Dock Woes - Insanity Within The Ultrabay

[EAkamai]

Received an Advanced Dock 250310U (IBM logo)
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_Advanced_Dock

Hoping against all hope that someone here will recognize this or be able to shed some badly needed light on it.
In almost 30 years of IT\Computer work, this is right near the top of the weirdest problems I've ever dealt with.
Testing on two [Integrated Graphics] T61s: a 14.1" XPPro & 15.x" Win7Pro and both have same identical problems.
Everything EXCEPT it's Ultrabay (media bay) seems to work OK. But the problems with the ultrabay are extensive.

At first, I couldn't get the Ultrabay to work at all. Then, all of a sudden, it worked with a small 60GB Seagate hdd,
but would not work with my larger WD 320GB Scorpio OR any optical drives whatsoever. Testing with numerous
CDRW-DVDROM & DVD Multi drives, there is no problem with any of these drives.
All drives (hdds & optical) read perfectly in both laptop bays. The problems are all with the Dock ultrabay.

After many hours of troubleshooting and reading as much as we could find on the Internet there was no change.
Then again, all of a sudden, it started reading even my larger 320GB Scorpio hdd. But still no optical drives.
More hours of troubleshooting and then - out of the blue - it started reading the optical drives.
But that's when it really started getting interesting. When it would read the hdd's ok, it would not read *any* optical drives
correctly. The rare times we got it to read the optical drives, it would not read *any* hdds. We have never been able to
get it to correctly read a hdd and then an optical drive or visa versa.

When it reads the hdds but no optical drives, the Combo drives would be recognized as "Removable disk" with or without a drive letter.
The DVD-Multi would just not show up (explorer) but shows up in DevMgr as "USB drive" with nothing in Computer.
No matter what after that, the optical drive types throw up a 'disk not formatted' warning and\or if you try to access the disk,
it demands that you insert a disk in the drive. Interestingly, the optical drives are incorrectly recognized as a USB hard drive in DevMgr
but in the rare case the optical drives are working, they are correctly recognized as Cdrom USB drives.
The mystery is how to get the OS to correctly recognize it and why does it change back and forth?! Why can't the bay
correctly read both types of drives?!

When the hdds are working, they are correctly recognized as usb hdd in DevMgr. When they are not working, they have a
USB error in the DevMgr USB section. Removing and re-detecting does nothing to fix it, or any of the other problems.
I've tried every imaginable fix I could think of - including testing with a mass of Live disks (mostly built with WinPE).
I had the EXACT same problems with every single live cd\dvd as we did with the installed OS's.

I've cleaned out all unused and old USB entries and hidden devices that are able to be removed.
Both systems are 1000% clean and otherwise rock solid. Since they also exhibit exact same problems
with the live discs, the OS can't be the sole cause of this craziness. I've cleaned out the Dock with air as well.
I've made sure to secure the dock to the laptop with the key in every case. I've even installed clean OS's to check.

I'm at the point where I'm starting to suspect one of two things or both.
1. The Middleton bios - could be causing a problem with the interface somehow.
Could be causing incompatibility issues somehow. Can anyone confirm usage of this dock with that bios?
Tried changing settings (Sata controller to "Compatible" -- USB Always on etc.) no go.
2. The dock itself is defective. Don't have another - unable to do a replacement troubleshoot.

I really wanted to get this working. I haven't even been able to get to the video card issue.
I never imagined having problems like this with the ultrabay drives being so flaky.
I've taken numerous screen shots (in both XP and W7) of drive properties when they do work correctly
and when they don't work correctly. Screenshots are of DevMgr, Computer\Explorer, DiskMgr etc.
If anyone thinks that would help, I'll link or post them.

Lastly, I've figured out a workaround to getting the hdds to work in the bay.
I simply install them before booting\restarting and they seem to show up correctly every time. But then
none of the optical drives will work. Conversely, trying this method with the optical drives doesn't work at all.
Go figure. As of this time, I have absolutely no idea what makes the optical drives work.

Thanks in advance for any help on this!

[cadillacmike68]

I have experienced similar, but not identical issues with my wife's T61. It does Not have the Middleton BIOS, so that may not be the issue.

My problem is that it doesn't like booting with an HDD in the dock's Ultrabay. I can hot mount one after boot, but it will not boot with an HDD there. It reads optical drives ok, but I haven't tried writing to one.

I have two docks, but haven't checked out the other dock yet.

[rkawakami]

I would closely inspect the docking port connections and see if any are bent out of position. It's possible that the problem is with the connections there and not inside the Ultrabay itself.

[EAkamai]

I would closely inspect the docking port connections and see if any are bent out of position. It's possible that the problem is with the connections there and not inside the Ultrabay itself.

Thank you for this input! I really haven't done a super close inspection of it. It was supplied by a very Precious person prominent in these Forums and I really wanted it to work.

I've been debating getting out my torx drivers and opening it but I'll look closer at that main interface connection.
I cleaned it with Electrowash (Chemtronics) and it did make a difference. Before cleaning, it would not recognized any drives.
After that, it started working but flaky and intermittent as described.

Thanks again!

[cadillacmike68]

Both of my advanced docks were new in the box, but that still doesn't mean the contacts didn't get dirty over time. I'll check them.

[EAkamai]

We've got two more of these on their way to test.

Even though I've never heard of this problem with that [media\ultra] bay,*
perhaps someone will want to know what was\is the cause.

*The closest to it is what cadillacmike shared above. (thanks Mike)

At any rate, if either one (or both) of these two being shipped work correctly,
there is very good chance I'll never know the exact cause of the problem.

[EAkamai]

After receiving more docks to test, I am 100% convinced these problems are being caused by the Middleton bios.
Nobody's yet confirmed they can swap these various [ultrabay] drives in and out successfully with a t61 using that bios.

After testing two docks (one is IBM branded and other is Lenovo branded) and having the EXACT same problems,
using two t61's with various Win OS's (XPPro SP2\SP3 & Win7), I'm convinced of the following:

1. We are not dealing with hardware or software issues with either the docks or the laptops themselves.
There is just no way that both these tpads main dock interface would be haywire in the same exact way.
And there is little to no probability that both these docks are defective in the exact same way.

2. Since the Middleton bios handles drive interface different than the lenovo bios does, and since the only problems
have to do with this [ultrabay] drive interface it makes me highly suspect the bios.

Now I really NEED to confirm this before wasting any more hours (DAYS) and $ on this but I'm not in a real hurry to brick
any of these incredible t61s to do it. I don't have a lot of experience with tpads like I do with just about every other brand
of computer, so I'll need some input on the safest way to 'back' flash one of these and with which bios version?

If anyone can help with that, it would be my next step. Everything else has been tried that I can think of.
IMHO, there is nothing left to try.

Thanks again for any help!

[RealBlackStuff]

You can install any lower Lenovo BIOS version, and then 'up' it again to the latest Lenovo BIOS.
That 'overrides' M's modifications.

[cadillacmike68]

My wife's T61 8897 does Not have the Middleton BIOS, and it has a similar issue with the advanced dock.

[EAkamai]

You can install any lower Lenovo BIOS version, and then 'up' it again to the latest Lenovo BIOS.
That 'overrides' M's modifications.

Thanks RBS! We've read in other threads\forums where you recommend v2.29.
Would that be a safe place to start this rodeo?

[RealBlackStuff]

Middleton is V2.29 so theoretically you could go straight to Lenovo V2.30 but there is next to no difference between 2.29 and 2.30 (audiochip only IIRC).
Personally I'd go back to Lenovo V2.27, then straight up to Lenovo V2.30, since you don't want M's BIOS.

I have probably made about 40 Frankies, all with Middleton's BIOS.
Although I have a docking station somewhere I never use it.
And apparently none of my Frankie-users uses a dock either, so I have never even heard of this problem before.

[86turbodsl]

I'll chime in here, i have a frankie with a few advanced docks. I've never had any issues with the ultrabay. My R60 DVD-R drive went into the advanced dock since i run a SSD/HDD ultrabay combo on the frankie. I have the middleton bios, and have never had any issues whatsoever using the ultrabay on the advanced dock. I have 3 of them, but have never done a lot of swapping back and forth. I tend to just use the one that's setup at the moment.

Let me know if there's anything you want to know or test.

[EAkamai]

Middleton is V2.29 so theoretically you could go straight to Lenovo V2.30 but there is next to no difference between 2.29 and 2.30 (audiochip only IIRC).
Personally I'd go back to Lenovo V2.27, then straight up to Lenovo V2.30, since you don't want M's BIOS.

I have probably made about 40 Frankies, all with Middleton's BIOS.
Although I have a docking station somewhere I never use it.
And apparently none of my Frankie-users uses a dock either, so I have never even heard of this problem before.

Thanks! Yes, this is what we are discovering.
I put the following to the precious supplier of these docks:

The dock is supposedly reliant upon basic win drivers and no separate drivers of it's own.
After installing a number of fresh OS installs (last night & all morning) and still having the exact same issues
makes me doubt it's anything but bios. Having the issue with every single PE live disk makes me further believe it.
BUT WHAT IF IT'S AN INHERENT PROBLEM WITH THE DOCK ITSELF? And has nothing to do with any basic drivers or bios?!
But if that was the case, surely SOMEONE would have swapped out a hdd for an optical drive or visa versa at some point?
Note that nobody who responded ever claimed to do that.

And maybe the dock ultrabay doesn't work like the ultrabay in the laptop itself. Could that be possible?!
Do you believe that Lenovo would ever cop to it if indeed that was the case?

If that turns out to be true, I could live with it as long as I could figure out how to get the optical drives to work AFTER a hdd.
Because visa versa seems to be a lot easier as explained before.
----------------------------
After a complete fresh install it appears the scenario is this:
Any optical drive will work correctly in the dock. But if I tried to access a hdd right away it gave problems.
And after the first initial optical drive worked, again swapping a hdd gave problems. HOWEVER,
If the hdd was already installed after the install it would read the hdd ok. But then any optical disk gave problems.

Very strange - and very very frustrating

[EAkamai]

I have 3 of them, but have never done a lot of swapping back and forth. I tend to just use the one that's setup at the moment. Let me know if there's anything you want to know or test.

Thank you very much for the offer.
Well, the 'test' is simple. Install a hdd in the bay and access it to make sure you can.
Then simply swap it out for a cdrw-dvdrom or dvd-multi drive and then see if you can read any disk in the drive.
We cannot get that far, since it doesn't load the optical drive correctly, it certainly can't read any disks.
It comes in as "Removable..." and demands formatting etc., or simply doesn't show up at all.

Thanks again!

[rkawakami]

From your explanation, am I to assume that you are "hot swapping" the drives? In other words, you DON'T use Windows' Safely Remove Hardware icon? If that's the case, then try using that utility and see what happens.

[EAkamai]

From your explanation, am I to assume that you are "hot swapping" the drives? In other words, you DON'T use Windows' Safely Remove Hardware icon? If that's the case, then try using that utility and see what happens.

Thank you! Actually, that's the only way we've been trying to swap these drives. We safely remove 'em when possible:

Crazy thing is, in W7, there is no way to do that with hdds, since they & any partitions are listed but 'grayed out'.
My XP system takes 'em out instantly. But it doesn't matter. Back and forth (hdd to optical & visa versa) just isn't possible.

The precious soul who provided these has suggested that there is some type of Lenovo software necessary for this to work.
He shared that I must use the update utility to get it. But I question what it is? A driver package? a software package?
I've never seen anything listed specifically for the docking station. But I don't install anything Lenovo except mandatory drivers
and the power mgt stuff. Did I somehow miss this?!

I've taken screen shots in DevMgr (only in XP so far) where it shows clearly when the dock is installed, it shows up in both
System Devices as "Docking Station", and also in USB Devices as "Generic USB Hub". When it's not in service those entries disappear.
When those entries are there, they show they are 'working normally' (no exclamation point etc.).

[86turbodsl]

I have 3 of them, but have never done a lot of swapping back and forth. I tend to just use the one that's setup at the moment. Let me know if there's anything you want to know or test.

Thank you very much for the offer.
Well, the 'test' is simple. Install a hdd in the bay and access it to make sure you can.
Then simply swap it out for a cdrw-dvdrom or dvd-multi drive and then see if you can read any disk in the drive.
We cannot get that far, since it doesn't load the optical drive correctly, it certainly can't read any disks.
It comes in as "Removable..." and demands formatting etc., or simply doesn't show up at all.

Thanks again!

I will attempt to do as you ask, but i can see from your efforts that you are attempting this with Windows7, and i only run Linux on my thinkpads. But I'll give it a shot. If it's truly a Middleton issue, then it should affect me as well.

[EAkamai]

I will attempt to do as you ask, but i can see from your efforts that you are attempting this with Windows7, and i only run Linux on my thinkpads. But I'll give it a shot. If it's truly a Middleton issue, then it should affect me as well.

I hope I made sure everyone knew I tried this with XPPro SP2 and SP3 systems (existing & fresh installs), every single live disk (CD\DVD) based upon WinPE,
and Win7 Pro, between two different T61s and three docks tested so far. Every single one gave us the same problems and issues.
I was going to test with Linux but haven't yet got around to it. Since I do multi-boot both Win\Linux I wanted to solve Win 1st,
but now you've motivated me to try it.

Thank you very much for your help!

[RealBlackStuff]

In BIOS, have you tried Config/USB/Always On USB Enabled
And when you installed Middleton, did you set Flash Over LAN to Enabled?
Have you removed Middleton's BIOS and returned to Lenovo BIOS?
If not, what have you been doing these last 2 weeks?

[EAkamai]

In BIOS, have you tried Config/USB/Always On USB Enabled
And when you installed Middleton, did you set Flash Over LAN to Enabled?
Have you removed Middleton's BIOS and returned to Lenovo BIOS?
If not, what have you been doing these last 2 weeks?

Hi RBS!
First question: Yes - didn't make any difference - Also disabled ability for OS to turn off all the USB hubs.
But noticed that the dock hub (Generic USB Hub) doesn't have that ability.
Second question: I flashed as per TuuS's instructions. Directly from hdd. I don't recall anything like that.
Third question: Not yet. Awaiting more info from those willing to help me by testing this themselves.
The precious individual who provided these is also trying to setup a test platform.
I'm also awaiting the answer to whether or not these use basic windows drivers or some kind of Lenovo software is required for these to work.
If they need Lenovo software we need to know what it is. A driver download or Lenovo utility?
It's been suggested we use the Lenovo upgrade utility but if that's the case there should be something listed specifically.

I really don't want to flash unless I have to.
In lieu of that, I've been working on this for so long I no longer have to deal with barbers.
Tried everything - multiple fresh clean installs galore. Testing multiple laptops and docking stations using various windows OS.
I'm about ready to try Linux. But it won't matter if we can't sort this out in Windows.

Thank you very much for your invaluable input.

[EAkamai]

I have confirmed how to get the drives 'working'. This goes for both systems
and both XP & Win7, between both t61s (one is 14.1" non-wide, other is 15.4" wide).
All three docking stations are the same.

I am unable to use hdds and optical drives in the same session NO MATTER WHAT.
In fact, we can't even use different hdds or different optical drives in the same session
UNTIL we shut system down, insert each drive and then turn on & boot the system.
We must do this for every single drive. Now once you do that, you CAN switch\swap
the optical drives (ie, swap a CDRW-DVDROM for a DVD-Multi and visa versa).
The same exact thing goes for the hdds. You MUST shut system down completely for each different hdd
you want to use. Once they have all been loaded correctly, you can switch\swap one hdd for the other.

If you try to swap an optical for a hdd it won't work. In fact it will take forever to shut down,
restart, and it will FREEZE on the initial boot screen IF the hdd remains in the dock.
You must remove the hdd to shut down, restart or even initially boot the system.
It's as if it 'remembers' there was an optical drive there and it's TICKED OFF that
it's no longer in there and been replaced by an 'intruder' when you reboot or shutdown.

Here is a "HOW TO" for the following drives (all Slim):
1 CDRW-DVDROM
1 DVD-MULTI
1 60GB Seagate hdd
1 320GB WD Scorpio hdd

1. Start with system OFF.
2. Decide whether you are going to need optical OR hdds in the dock.
3. Insert desired drive, turn on and boot up the system. Let system load drive
and confirm everything is ok. Do this for every drive in that category (optical & hdds).
So in this How To you need to completely shut down, insert and load the above 4 drives.
The best mileage comes from doing all the drives in one category (optical or hdd) and
then move on to the other category. In other words, load up all optical drives and the
do the hdds. You can load drives in the other order and it seems to work the same.
4. Once all drives have been successfully loaded, you can now switch\swap the drive
as long as you swap the same category of drive and it has already been correctly
loaded and properly recognized.

Again we cannot switch between optical and hdd within the same session EVEN IF WE REBOOT.
We must completely shut down and then restart. Once we get all the drives loaded properly,
we can switch between an optical or a hdd as long as we shut down completely before inserting the new drive.

Lunacy at it's best - especially today. I would totally expect garbage like this 10 years ago, but today?
and with W7? Crazy. XP works better because the drives show up properly in the safely remove icon.
But again, if you are not doing anything with these drives you can simply hot swap them
as long as you are swapping the same category of drives (optical & hdd). I've proved this works perfectly fine.
Hdds need to be configured for 'quick removal'. But for hdds in W7, I use the DevMgr to uninstall before swapping.

I no longer believe it's the bios causing this.
I believe it is the nature of the beast, er dock AND\OR the compatibility of using slim drives in the Enhanced ultrabay.
So it is probably a combination of a number of things. I do not have any enhanced drives to test.
Better gurus than I will have to sort that out. I'm at a loss.

It will be a huge blessing to fix this lunacy, but I'm not sure it can be fixed.

Hopefully if anyone else has discovered this crazy behavior, this will help sort some of it out.

[cadillacmike68]

Once I get my win 7 installs sorted out (as in done!), I'll dig into this as well. I have 2 Advanced docks, 4 T61s and will have both XPP and W7P (32 & 64) as platforms. For a while I'll have at least one machine with the Lenovo BIOS, but since I've had similar issues with a Lenovo BIOS T61 for years, I don't think its the BIOS. I have about 8 optical drives, including One Enhanced DVD-Multi-II, and a dozen or more HDDs made by Hitachi, WDC (and Hitachi under WDC) and Seagate.

That should be a good enough variety of items for a test.

[EAkamai]

Once I get my win 7 installs sorted out (as in done!), I'll dig into this as well. I have 2 Advanced docks, 4 T61s and will have both XPP and W7P (32 & 64) as platforms. For a while I'll have at least one machine with the Lenovo BIOS, but since I've had similar issues with a Lenovo BIOS T61 for years, I don't think its the BIOS. I have about 8 optical drives, including One Enhanced DVD-Multi-II, and a dozen or more HDDs made by Hitachi, WDC (and Hitachi under WDC) and Seagate.

That should be a good enough variety of items for a test.

Wow Mike, that's an understatement!
Actually, you are in an excellent position for this, the largest factors being the non Middleton bios and the Enhanced optical drive.
I'm still performing tests to make sure the convoluted workaround we are stuck with will actually work every time.
And if we can confirm some of the other goofiness going on, it would be a huge blessing.
If by some strange coincidence the bios does make a difference, what a huge revelation that would be.
Can't thank you enough!

[EAkamai]

After putting so much time and effort into this, I now believe the question can be simplified here:

Are these Advanced Docks even capable of hot swapping drives?! We've proven they can hot swap drives of the same type that have been properly recognized
(by completely shutting down as described in above post) but why can't they properly recognize drives without shutting down first?!

If not, certainly there should be some kind of documentation on it. Preferably with some kind of driver\utility that would allow it.
After all, I can hot swap with Win2K, XP, W7 with my laptops & desktops* with no extra software whatsoever.

* I use removable drive bays and control specific drives (internal & external) with special power switches.

Since these devices (Docks) are so reliant upon USB technology, I can't see why they would not be hot swap capable,
but alas, I now think the answer is a resounding "NO!". If they are, then of course the bios MAY be the culprit.
And we can't forget using Slim drives in these Enhanced bays. But where's the documentation? The only thing
we found is that these Enhanced bays are compatible with slim drives with no limitations presented.

[cadillacmike68]

I'll start by putting the 8898 (no Middleton BIOS yet) on one dock with a slim and enhanced optical and two Hitachi 160GB test HDDs.

My long standing problem with the 8897 was that the system refused to boot with a HDD in the dock. That machine has the Lenovo BIOS.

I'll try with all 3 devices in the dock, with a second 160GB HDD in the Ultrabay. and then with a 2nd (identical) slim optical drive in the Uultrabay. I'll see which combo boots, then see what I can swap.

That will give me results with a HDD in the ultrabay and an optical drive in the ultrabay. IF I get the no boot or no swap errors like you, then we be confident that the problem is Not the BIOS.

Then I need to flash that BIOS for win7. I'll still have my wife's 8897 for more testing if we need it.

[EAkamai]

I'll start by putting the 8898 (no Middleton BIOS yet) on one dock with a slim and enhanced optical and two Hitachi 160GB test HDDs.

My long standing problem with the 8897 was that the system refused to boot with a HDD in the dock. That machine has the Lenovo BIOS.

I'll try with all 3 devices in the dock, with a second 160GB HDD in the Ultrabay. and then with a 2nd (identical) slim optical drive in the Uultrabay. I'll see which combo boots, then see what I can swap.

That will give me results with a HDD in the ultrabay and an optical drive in the ultrabay. IF I get the no boot or no swap errors like you, then we be confident that the problem is Not the BIOS.

Then I need to flash that BIOS for win7. I'll still have my wife's 8897 for more testing if we need it.

That's Great Mike!
But keep in mind that we haven't experienced any problems swapping drives (any slim drive no matter what type) in the laptop bay, and it makes no difference which drive is or isn't in the dock.
It's only the bay in the dock that has been giving us the problems described in this thread.

But I just thought of something. During all this testing and troubleshooting we've only had the CDRW-DVDROM drive in the laptop.
I've never tested drives in the dock with a hdd in the laptop bay. Yippee yet another variable to the hundreds I've already tried.
But I honestly don't believe it makes any difference what drive - if any - is in the laptop bay.
The cause(s) of the dock drive behavior lies elsewhere.

[twistero]

It might be a good idea to find out how exactly is the UltraBay dock wired internally. The T61 does not have SATA lanes on its docking connector, so the UltraBay dock could hanging off either the PCIe bus or the USB bus.

Open Device Manager and switch to "view by connection", find the UltraBay drive, and trace up. What are its parent nodes in the device tree?

[cadillacmike68]

Well, there is a PCI card slot in it, so it must have that. It also has a USB hub. So it should have both. The question is - how is the Ultrabay connected to the main ThinkPad??

[RealBlackStuff]

The docking-connector on the mobo has contacts for SATA:
21 SATA_TX+
23/24 SATA_TX-
62 SATA_RX+
62/63 SATA_RX-
but as Twistero said, these are NOT connected to the mobo.
There is also only 1 group of 4 PCIE connectors and only 1 pair of USB connectors.

[EAkamai]

It might be a good idea to find out how exactly is the UltraBay dock wired internally. The T61 does not have SATA lanes on its docking connector, so the UltraBay dock could hanging off either the PCIe bus or the USB bus.

Open Device Manager and switch to "view by connection", find the UltraBay drive, and trace up. What are its parent nodes in the device tree?

Ok, without submitting a screenshot, here's how it goes:
Whether it be an hdd or an optical drive in the dock bay, they connect this way (from top):

"Intel(R) ICH8 Family USB2 Enhanced Host Controller - 283A"
"USB Root Hub"
"Generic USB Hub"
"USB Mass Storage Device"
whatever storage device name followed by "USB Device"

Please keep in mind that the above only applies when the OS 'sees' the device correctly.
For the times it doesn't install the device correctly, I've taken screen shots of DevMgr & Computer, as it is all different.