X41 - Useful in today's world?

[Danny]

Hello everyone,

About a year ago I received 3 X41 laptops in trade for some other electronics. No power adapters, shot batteries, a bit beat up, and disk / disk slot cover was missing. I succeeded in booting them up with an old-style ThinkPad adapter my friend had, and booting off a Linux USB I had. Didn't do too much with them. My primary laptop is a T430 equipped with 16 GB and a SSD, I take it to school almost daily. I recently upgraded my desktop computer and I now use that for heavier computing tasks (eg video conversion, compiling, games) that I used to use the T430 for. Now I really only run a telnet session, Notepad++, a VPN client, Deluge, and Firefox on my laptop. Occasionally I watch some 1280x720 videos on it as well.
The X41s look appealing to lighten my backpack load, and I think they could handle most of my daily tasks well enough. My sister has a X230 and really likes it for the small size. Would it be worth the cost of an adapter, battery and SSD to upgrade one and start using it? Or should I look into selling them as is and getting a newer X series?
Also I assume I would run Linux or Windows Vista on these due to the older chipset/XP being EOL.
Thanks in advance.
Danny

[ajkula66]

The biggest problem with X4x units is the hard drive. The original Hitachi 1.8" PATA units that they were shipped with are both slow and expensive. There are many hacks available for getting the system up to par with the ZIF SSD mod likely being the most palatable one.

Personally, I'd get rid of these machines and buy an X60s or X61s which are of the similar dimensions/weight but much more modern and far easier to maintain.

My $0.02 only...

[pianowizard]

The biggest problem with X4x units is the hard drive.

An equally big problem is the 1024x768 screen resolution. It was already a limitation back in 2005 when this X41 came out. 10 years later, it's an even worse problem.

Personally, I'd get rid of these machines and buy an X60s or X61s which are of the similar dimensions/weight but much more modern and far easier to maintain.

I too would sell these X41's, but instead I would get an ultraportable laptop with at least 1280x800 resolution. The X6* is stuck with 1024x768 just like the X4*.

Danny, have you considered any of the 10" to 11" 2-in-1 laptops that are flooding the market? I bought an HP Pavilion x2 for $200 around Black Friday and like it much more than I had expected. These aren't going to be as well built as an X4* or X6*, but they weigh only 2 lbs with keyboard attached (barely over 1 lb with just the tablet portion), and battery duration is *much* better. Also, you wouldn't need to spend extra money upgrading the OS because these 2-in-1 laptops already have Windows 8. And I really like the fact that these small 2-in-1's have microSD instead of SD card readers, so I can plug the microSD card from my phone straight into the tablet, without a microSD-to-SD adapter. One last advantage is that these 2-in-1's use micro-USB chargers. When I am traveling, I need to bring a micro-USB charger for my phone anyway, which can be shared with the 2-in-1. If I had to travel with a traditional laptop-style tablet such as the X41 tablet, I would need to carry a separate charger, increasing my travel weight by nearly a pound.

I was deciding between this HP x2 versus the Asus T100TA, and opted for the former for several reasons: lighter, slightly faster CPU, cheaper, 1280x800 instead of 1366x768, and most importantly, it has a full-sized USB port on the tablet rather than the keyboard. These days, I use this el cheapo 2-in-1 more often than any of my other laptops. This may be the first time in my whole life that I have liked a consumer-class laptop made by HP.

[Tasurinchi]

Those X41's are nice and small, if you like to play around with them you can max them up a little using a mSata SSD + mSata to IDE adapter. Almost every Linux Distro's will run ootb, but don't expect too much, apart from the small screen you're still limited to 2GB RAM and a single core CPU

(I have an X41T with a ZIF SSD running Win7 quite decently, and a X41 with a 32GB mSata SSD running Debian -much snappier combo- both with 2GB RAM)

[MisterB]

I use my X41T for reading scans of old magazines and comics. The screen size and veritcal orientation are perfect. I prefer 1024x728 4:3 to the narrower 1200x800 screen size. Things get squeezed too much at 16:9. The IPS display is great for this.

That being said, I just got a couple of X61Ts with Multitouch which are much better and faster and, even for this humble task, much better due to both Multitouch and better navigation buttons. The X41T has just up and down buttons. The X61T has an up, down, left and right control with "enter" in the middle. It is better than the ones on my X201T. Both the X41T and the X61T have great IPS displays. The X201T has a nice display too but it isn't as vibrant.

[pianowizard]

I use my X41T for reading scans of old magazines and comics. The screen size and veritcal orientation are perfect. I prefer 1024x728 4:3 to the narrower 1200x800 screen size. Things get squeezed too much at 16:9. The IPS display is great for this.

But the X41 tablet is super heavy (3.5 lbs with the small battery, 4.0 lbs with the extended one) and I bet you use it on a desk 99.9% of the time. Slate tablets weighing only 0.7 to 1.3 lbs are easy to hold, so you can simply hold the screen closer to your eyes if you want to make it look bigger. Also, most of today's slate tablets have nicer screens than the X41 or X6* tablets. I owned an X41 tablet and an X61 tablet very briefly, and disliked how the digitizer layer distorted the image. The grainy quality of the X61 tablet's SXGA+ screen was annoying as well.

Bulky laptop-style tablets are so obsolete.

[MisterB]

Actually, I read in bed with the X41T and X61T. They don't seem too heavy to me. Like I said, for comics and magazines, 4:3 works a lot better than 16:9. I find the X41 and X61 to be among the best Thinkpad displays. The colors are vibrant and gorgeous. I can't say that for the X201. The colors are a bit muted by the digitizer.

I own one android tablet but it gets very little use. I'm fond of the convertibles. They're not for everyone true, but they suit my taste. One reason I use Thinkpads is that I'm in control. With Apple and Android systems, I don't like not being able to mod the hardware easily and I don't like being forced to use just one OS. Thinkpads have always appealed to me because they have always supported different OSes and configurations. I'm not just limited to what was supplied by the manufacturer.

[Danny]

OK. Thanks for the insight folks. I guess these old guys will be pawned off on the local Craigslist, or the Marketplace here.
Are there any durable, comfy keyboard ultraportables ( <= 13.3" screen ) that have resolution > 1366x768? Just wondering, although at that screen size 1366x768 could be doable.

MisterB, I'm just dealing with the humble laptop style for now although tablet editions could be interesting - I tried the iPad life (to get away from taking the T430 everywhere) and it didn't hold up for me, mostly because of my heavy use of Windows applications and the good keyboard on the ThinkPad. A tablet PC might be cool although as was mentioned the weight would be a bit of a concern in tablet mode. And I have an illogical fear of the smaller, inexpensive Atom based tablets of today failing me in some way (I don't yet know what way, ). One reason could be the best in class upgradability that ThinkPads and, by extension, HP and Dell business laptops give me.

[ajkula66]

Are there any durable, comfy keyboard ultraportables ( <= 13.3" screen ) that have resolution > 1366x768? Just wondering, although at that screen size 1366x768 could be doable.

X301 comes to mind, with its 13.3" 1440x900.

X200s and X201s - but not all of them - were offered with the same resolution on a 12" LCD.

If the battery life is important to you, X200s wins hands down. Build-quality-wise, X301 wins.

Do bear in mind that none of these screens - especially the one on X301 - are anything to write home about when it comes to colour reproduction and viewing angles.

[Danny]

Do bear in mind that none of these screens - especially the one on X301 - are anything to write home about when it comes to colour reproduction and viewing angles.

Cool. I am not very spoiled by my portable display quality... the 1600x900 on this T430 is demolished by any MacBook Pro I happen upon. Just like the extra pixels for working with side by side windows.

[NorrisCell]

If you do decide to let them go, shoot me a message first. I may want one or more for projects

[pianowizard]

Are there any durable, comfy keyboard ultraportables ( <= 13.3" screen ) that have resolution > 1366x768? Just wondering, although at that screen size 1366x768 could be doable....And I have an illogical fear of the smaller, inexpensive Atom based tablets of today failing me in some way (I don't yet know what way, ). One reason could be the best in class upgradability that ThinkPads and, by extension, HP and Dell business laptops give me.

The X301, X200s and X201s (which is extremely rare and thus pricy) recommended by ajkula66 are worth looking into. However, though these laptops were considered reasonably powerful when they were new, they aren't much faster than some of today's Atom-powered 2-in-1's. Also, although they were impressively light when they came out, there are now many 2-in-1's that weigh much less. And like I said earlier, these 2-in-1's have much better screens and battery longevity. My HP x2 is kept in my office most of the time though I bring it home to use once in a while. It lasts for so long on a single charge that I usually bring it home without its charger. If I do need to charge it at home, any of my microUSB phone chargers would be compatible.

So many interesting 2-in-1's were released in the past year or two that I think it's worth considering relaxing some of your requirements, namely keyboard quality and upgradability. For example, the Microsoft Surface Pro 3 is a phenomenal 2-in-1, with a stunning 3:2 screen that you can't find on any Wintel laptop. Though its Type Cover is no match for any Thinkpad keyboard, it's still totally usable (but be sure to avoid the Touch Cover). You can't upgrade the RAM or SSD, but 8GB RAM is plenty for the majority of users, and the microSD card reader allows you to add up to 128GB of storage.

I tried the iPad life (to get away from taking the T430 everywhere) and it didn't hold up for me, mostly because of my heavy use of Windows applications and the good keyboard on the ThinkPad.

iPad and Android tablets didn't work for me either. But in my previous posts I was recommending 2-in-1's that run full Windows.

Just like the extra pixels for working with side by side windows.

That's pretty tough to do on the 1440x900 screens of the X301, X200s and X201s. Most likely you would end up having two windows that overlap a lot.

[Dekks]

The trouble with the 2 in 1's unless you want to just use them as glorified tablets they wont last as theyre a tad fragile as they're build to a budget.

[pianowizard]

The trouble with the 2 in 1's unless you want to just use them as glorified tablets they wont last as theyre a tad fragile as they're build to a budget.

If you are referring to the amphibious laptops that rotate, swivel, and/or twist to transform into tablets, then I totally agree, because the more moving parts an electronic device has, the more likely it will break.

But for the 2-in-1's with detachable keyboards, many if not most of them are as well built as the typical laptop's display lid. My HP Pavilion x2 is one of the cheapest 2-in-1's with detachable keyboards, and yet the back of the screen is amazingly solid. In a sense, they do break more easily than laptops because they are hand-held mid-air much more often than laptops, so they are far more likely to be dropped. If we held our laptops the same way and at the same frequency, they too would be dropping like flies.

[ajkula66]

So many interesting 2-in-1's were released in the past year or two that I think it's worth considering relaxing some of your requirements, namely keyboard quality and upgradability. For example, the Microsoft Surface Pro 3 is a phenomenal 2-in-1, with a stunning 3:2 screen that you can't find on any Wintel laptop.

Surface Pro 3 is an interesting piece of hardware. With that being said, I simply can't relax my keyboard requirements enough in order to be able to use it.

The closest that I've ever come to a small machine that matched my own requirements was X60T with a SXGA+ LCD. However, I did have two complaints which made me take a different route:

1) The keyboard felt cramped and I kept on hitting the wrong keys way too often.

2) It did not have a ThinkLight which is very important for me.

I have yet to use X301 in a really longer run where no other machines are available to me and see whether I can actually live with it. The build quality is excellent, and the battery life meets my requirements that are not huge. While the keyboard is OMG wonderful the LCD leaves a lot to be desired even with a custom profile...so we'll see.

[Dekks]

If you are referring to the amphibious laptops that rotate, swivel, and/or twist to transform into tablets, then I totally agree, because the more moving parts an electronic device has, the more likely it will break.

But for the 2-in-1's with detachable keyboards, many if not most of them are as well built as the typical laptop's display lid. My HP Pavilion x2 is one of the cheapest 2-in-1's with detachable keyboards, and yet the back of the screen is amazingly solid. In a sense, they do break more easily than laptops because they are hand-held mid-air much more often than laptops, so they are far more likely to be dropped. If we held our laptops the same way and at the same frequency, they too would be dropping like flies.

I agree with your first para but i've not seen it with my work X60T/X61T/X201T could be i'm used to "twisting carefully"

Ive used X series tablets since mid 2000s on the factory floor and theyre fine physically, the 2in 1's i've seen have issues with the connectors, keyboards that have keys that just stop working and tablets that IMO flex too much. The trial 2 in 1's have now been retired from the QA dept and were given to sales although there is 1 Thinkpad Twist still being used by and i have my work x201T.

[pianowizard]

I agree with your first para but i've not seen it with my work X60T/X61T/X201T could be i'm used to "twisting carefully"

Sorry but I wasn't even thinking of these traditional convertibles! I was thinking of the ones that came out in the past couple years, such as Sony's Flip and Duo, Dell's Duo, Lenovo's Yoga, etc. Technically they are in the same category as the X Series tablets and other traditional convertibles, but they are different because they try to be light enough to be held as if they were slate tablets. To make them so light, engineers have to cut lots of corners. Using flimsy material to build something with so many moving parts is a terrible idea.

The X Series tablets and equivalent tablets by Dell, HP, Fujitsu etc. are not intended to be held with one hand for extended periods. So, they are made of appropriately strong material, at the expense of weight.

Ive used X series tablets since mid 2000s on the factory floor and theyre fine physically, the 2in 1's i've seen have issues with the connectors, keyboards that have keys that just stop working and tablets that IMO flex too much.

I don't know which models you are referring to. Perhaps these are super cheap models that I haven't even bothered to try out at local stores. There are certainly lots of very cheap, disposable Android tablets, but so far in this thread I have been talking exclusively about tablets running full Windows (as opposed to Windows RT). My HP x2's keyboard has been working fine so far, but I can imagine the outward-facing keyboards of Yoga-style tablets to be quite vulnerable.

There's no question that the X Series and other traditional convertible tablets are far more durable, but there's a good reason why they have remained niche products: they are just too heavy. I gave them a try back in 2007 -- an X41T and an X61T -- and sold both within a week. That X41T (with the extended battery) weighed a whopping 4.14 lbs, and the X61T, which had the small battery, still weighed 3.84 lbs. Moreover, the digitizer layer distorted the image badly, the X61T's sparkling SXGA+ screen was unpleasant, and the stylus was awkward to use. Obviously, some people still find these clunky convertibles useful, but I don't.

[Dekks]

What do you do with your HP? I get the feeling you use your Envy x2 more as a typical tablet, i.e more as a portable display. The ones we had were Pavillion x2's.

Those of us who still use the x201T's have never bothered with the weight and we use them in a production line environment in QC/Audit for marking paint defects and i use mine for Prod Eng tasks and we need the stylus input. The amount of paper we do away with is a big benefit.

[pianowizard]

What do you do with your HP? I get the feeling you use your Envy x2 more as a typical tablet, i.e more as a portable display. The ones we had were Pavillion x2's.

Interesting, the x2 that I have is also a Pavilion, not an Envy. I am very darn impressed with the build quality of the tablet portion, which is much better than that of the Lenovo Lynx K3011 I had last summer. You said yours "flexed too much", but like I said before, mine is as solid as any typical laptop display lid, and certainly more solid than the lids of most netbooks. Did you mean flexing of the keyboard? Also, I think the Pavilion x2 came out only about 3 months ago. Was yours a prototype?

On the other hand, I can see how easily the keyboard connector could get damaged, especially if it's a company-issued machine and an employee handles it roughly. I am gentle with my x2, since I bought it with my own money.

BTW, so far I have used this x2 as a laptop at least 98% of the time, because most of the things that I do require typing.

[Dekks]

Got them in Oct 2014, don't know how early/late that was. Supplier saw our use of the tablets and suggested them.

Re:Flexing - After 3 or 4 weeks the tablets certainly felt that way, i avoided the trial till then. The keyboard was an issue and care points were noted to the guinea pigs beforehand. They tended not to leave the desk. Were lucky we have a stock of ex lease X201T's and the boss bought a stack of "in need of repair" ones from the US for spares. Although i think the Logistics ppl may get them as HP now say they can supply a stylus for them.

Back on topic, sadly modern browsers are so big they kill any single core CPU and usually need OpenGL 2.0 at least. My X30 just dies with FF and Chrome. Which is a pity as it has the best KB of any of my TPs.

[wisdomkeeper]

The X301, X200s and X201s (which is extremely rare and thus pricy) recommended by ajkula66 are worth looking into. However, though these laptops were considered reasonably powerful when they were new, they aren't much faster than some of today's Atom-powered 2-in-1's..

This is totally not true. Intel Core2 Duo P9400 @ 2.40GHz 1681 points - Pass Mark, Intel Atom D2701 @ 2.13GHz - 699 points Pass Mark. So the Intel Atom devices today are not even close to the obsolete Intel Core2Duo. Atom is closer to Pentium III-M and Pentium 4/M. I will never consider tablet PC with Windows8. I don't like the new Windows.

[pianowizard]

This is totally not true. Intel Core2 Duo P9400 @ 2.40GHz 1681 points - Pass Mark, Intel Atom D2701 @ 2.13GHz - 699 points Pass Mark. So the Intel Atom devices today are not even close to the obsolete Intel Core2Duo.

Why is the P9400 relevant? It was never used in the X3** or X2**. Here are the fastest CPUs that the X301, X200s and X201s had:
X301: Core2 Duo SU9600 = 1109 benchmark points
X200s: Core2 Duo SL9600 = 1504 points
X201s: Core i7-640LM = 2315 points

Are they faster than most Atom processors? Sure, but what I said was "they aren't much faster than some of today's Atom-powered 2-in-1's". And why did you compare with a low-end Atom CPU? Even the Atom Z3736F CPU in my HP Pavilion x2, which is one of today's cheapest Atom-powered 2-in-1's, has a score of 918. The fastest X301 isn't much faster than that. The Atom Z3795, which is quad-core, scores 1658, faster than the fastest X200s.

The adage "all Celerons are slow" became obsolete many years ago, and we can now say the same for Atoms. The fastest X201s still trumps all Atom devices by quite a margin, but it's really hard to find an X201s these days. Even if you find one, it would most likely have the i5-520UM, which is rated at only 1349.

[axur-delmeria]

We can now say the same for Atoms.

Thank Intel for introducing Silvermont/Bay Trail, the first real upgrade to the Atom line.

All previous Atoms uses the same Bonnell CPU architecture, with die shrinks and memory controller/IGP integration as the only upgrades, which means that the 1.66GHz N280 is just as fast as the 1.66GHz N450, and one core of the dual-core 1.66Ghz N570 and N2600.

The N2600/2800's HD 3600 graphics? It's PowerVR SGX-based, meaning: beta 64-bit drivers (I've seen it in action, it's bad), atrocious Linux support, and can cause BSODs with Chrome (I've seen this too).

Silvermont brings ~50% increase in performance at the same clock speed, improved graphics (cut down version of Ivy Bridge HD Graphics), and even lower power consumption.

Silvermont is so good that the netbook-class ones aren't labelled Atoms anymore, they're Celerons now: dual-core N28xx series and quad-core N29xx series. Heck, some of them are even Pentiums: N35xx series.

[Danny]

If only there was a ThinkPad X61 tablet with a modern Atom processor for amazing battery life...

[sdfox7]

The biggest problem with X4x units is the hard drive.

An equally big problem is the 1024x768 screen resolution. It was already a limitation back in 2005 when this X41 came out. 10 years later, it's an even worse problem.

Personally, I'd get rid of these machines and buy an X60s or X61s which are of the similar dimensions/weight but much more modern and far easier to maintain.

I too would sell these X41's, but instead I would get an ultraportable laptop with at least 1280x800 resolution. The X6* is stuck with 1024x768 just like the X4*.

Danny, have you considered any of the 10" to 11" 2-in-1 laptops that are flooding the market? I bought an HP Pavilion x2 for $200 around Black Friday and like it much more than I had expected. These aren't going to be as well built as an X4* or X6*, but they weigh only 2 lbs with keyboard attached (barely over 1 lb with just the tablet portion), and battery duration is *much* better. Also, you wouldn't need to spend extra money upgrading the OS because these 2-in-1 laptops already have Windows 8. And I really like the fact that these small 2-in-1's have microSD instead of SD card readers, so I can plug the microSD card from my phone straight into the tablet, without a microSD-to-SD adapter. One last advantage is that these 2-in-1's use micro-USB chargers. When I am traveling, I need to bring a micro-USB charger for my phone anyway, which can be shared with the 2-in-1. If I had to travel with a traditional laptop-style tablet such as the X41 tablet, I would need to carry a separate charger, increasing my travel weight by nearly a pound.

I was deciding between this HP x2 versus the Asus T100TA, and opted for the former for several reasons: lighter, slightly faster CPU, cheaper, 1280x800 instead of 1366x768, and most importantly, it has a full-sized USB port on the tablet rather than the keyboard. These days, I use this el cheapo 2-in-1 more often than any of my other laptops. This may be the first time in my whole life that I have liked a consumer-class laptop made by HP.

RE: the 1024x768 resolution, it works perfectly for my 14" T40. Maybe that resolution is too small for a 12" screen, but it's just fine for a 14" with no scrolling needed to view any of the websites I use.

Too bad about the hard drive limitation, 7200RPM can do wonders for IDE spec drive.

[Khipata]

I will be a thinkpad heretic here and if you want something light, small, virtually unbreakable and if you are OK with low resolutions, get used Getac (E100 tablet with small USB or bluetooth keyboard or bulkier V100 convertible). Trust me, I have them both and you can use them as hammers too if necessary
Thinkpadwise I would also recommend X300, X301 or X201T.
X41 is a great machine, as is X40 but today they just do not cut the bill. Excellent collectibles and retro gamers though

[pianowizard]

RE: the 1024x768 resolution, it works perfectly for my 14" T40. Maybe that resolution is too small for a 12" screen, but it's just fine for a 14" with no scrolling needed to view any of the websites I use.

1024x768 is fine for people with limited exposure to higher resolutions. Once we have gotten used to higher resolutions, many (if not most) of us don't want to go back to 1024x768. This is called being spoiled.

A couple weeks ago I bought a 40" 3840x2160 monitor, which has made my 30" 2560x1600 monitor feel restrictive!

[shawross]

That is so true if it applies to your regular driver but for occasional use I seem to be able to overlook that situation with my X61 XGA screen.

[Norway Pad]

I got a X41 a couple of weeks ago, and as I got it for free (almost), I plan to put Linux Antix on it and use it for random stuff around the house. I have no problems with the lower resolution, and I regularly use 600 and 560 machines with this resolution. A little less real estate than my newer and higher resolution machines, but in no way any limitation for most of my tasks. But in general the whole resolution issue depends totally on your own needs and preferences, though. Try it out first and see if you can live with it.

The main limitation, like earlier stated, seems to be the 1.8" HDD, which is listed as 4200 rpm only. I have yet to install anything on it, but I assume a CF -> IDE adapter might give better results.

[twisting_edge]

I found the main trick to handling low screen resolution is turn off the text anitaliasing. That was a bad idea when they started and it's worse now. In unix (ubuntu, at least), you also have to turn on the hint, so the text lines back up with the pixels again. You basically get back to where you were with Windows 3.1. The text is fully legible, and your eyes aren't going crazy trying to focus something that's inherently fuzzy. The text just has corners on it where it shouldn't, that's all.

I used an X40 as my daily portable for about a year before getting an X32 a few months ago. It's fine for unix. I use a desktop for my main machine, the x40 is just for planes, trains and automobiles (and lectures, etc.). I use it daily on the train, mostly for programming (i.e., text applications).

I also have a super-sharp Chromebook Pixel running Ubuntu. It is a joy to look at. It just sucks you in, even when working with text. And if I drop it, I'm $1,500 of ticked off (or would have been when I first bought it). If I drop an X40, I'm maybe $50 of annoyed (never happened, I might add). You wind up buying tiny electronics then carrying around huge amounts of padding to protect them. I've used my X40 as a tray to carry beer (get another machine if you plan to use it in that role: the X40 is far too small).

The drive is slow, granted, but I put an SSD in the X40 years ago. My other x40 (no SSD) ran OK but had very slow boot times and the browser took forever to start (ran OK once started, though). I think that's more because it had only 512Mb of RAM than the SSD. It pops right up on my other x40, though.