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Will Lenovo jump on the subnotebook bandwagon?

E.g. 3000, IdeaPad, S- and U-Series, B-Series and so on...
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Will Lenovo jump on the subnotebook bandwagon?

#1 Post by qviri » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:40 am

First came the Eee, and now HP announced the 2133 Mininote. I wasn't a big fan of the Eee, but the HP improves over it in a number of key fields (keyboard, screen resolution, expresscard). Of course there are still problems.

I wonder if we will see such a machine from Lenovo. The small size would really benefit from having a trackpoint (they may as well sell the Mininote bundled with a Logitech VX nano), and I'd love to see a Thinkpad-quality keyboard, even if it was shrunk a bit from the current X series layout.
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#2 Post by iamdmc » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:10 pm

I don't buy into the micro-laptops they have out these days.

$500 for a "well-equipped" (compared to other micro laptops) but substantially underpowered machine with little to no real world usefulness doesn't sound like a deal. Why don't I buy a used T60 for $500 instead?

Yes, it's a trendy thing, and it's tiny, but it's just too Hollywood. I can see paris hilton carrying one of those around - only covered in Svarovski (or however you spell that overpriced brand) crystals.

While I wouldn't wholly lose respect if Lenovo followed a trend, I would be disappointed by it.
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#3 Post by j-dawg » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:11 pm

The Mini-Note is very cool, but it strikes me as too much of a compromise, like the Vaio TZ series. The Eee is a better device simply because $500 is too much for what the subnotebook is supposed to be--a secondary machine for portability, to complement and not replace a more capable computer. The Eee can be had in a usable configuration for $350. Meanwhile, the Mini-Note, like the TZ, tries to strike a balance between being subnotebook-sized and powerful enough to replace whatever else you were using, making it too expensive and probably giving you a headache for trying to read on that tiny screen for too long.

I don't need a lot of power when I'm on the road, because I've got bigger computers that can do anything I need at home. So I'll sacrifice that power and get ultimate portability--but it needs to come at a low price. That's where Asus has it right.
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#4 Post by t20user » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:25 am

I have gone crazy looking at sub notebooks for years seeing who has the smallest, the lightest, the thinest. It eventually dawned on me that the IBM X20, X30, X40 series are all about the right size for travel . Anything smaller is just a nuisance for me such as a PDA with a keyboard or any of the super small keyboard laptops.

The EeePC looks cool, but for the same money I have an X40 with an 8Gb CF SSD, and in the long run I know the X40 is sized right.

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#5 Post by t20user » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:37 am

The other interesting thing about this topic is that news all over the web is popping up about this "new style" of laptop: one that is ultraportable with small screen sizes and no optical drive. I guess it takes the notion that you can sell your subnote to children in Africa for under $400 for these things to be real?

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#6 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:44 am

I'm not sure that I understand the micro-laptop concept, and would most certainly never buy one, Lenovo or not...

As for Lenovo jumping on that bandwagon, IdeaPad Y110 should be a step in that direction, although slightly bigger by dimensions.

If a X4x or X6x is too big...use your PDA device...

Just my $0.02....
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Re: IBM Subnote

#7 Post by schen » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:18 am

Pre-Lenovo of course, but IBM had gone down this route with the S Series and the PC110 (my memory is a little foggy, so help me out on this) for Japan only. Although, that was some years ago, I'll bet those designers have seen the IBM designs before.
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#8 Post by t20user » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:50 am

I stand by my initial point of view on these things, however these Fujitsu tablets look cool...

http://www.desktoplinux.org/news/NS4307570673.html

It seems like this fad is making headway and I can see a large bandwagon of consumers buying these things. I get this feeling that after all these people buy these and use them they will go cross eyed from trying to look at the tiny screens and there will be tons of class action law suits against the makers, just like in the movie "The Jerk"! haha.

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#9 Post by iamdmc » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:26 pm

They're cool... until you use them.

I forecast MANY "refurbished" deals - ie. lots of people will return them.

Don't worry, the manufacturers will still make money. The 15% restock fee will make sure of that.


Micro-laptos are like the PDA you can't hold in your hand, that is awkward, has horrible battery life, takes forever to load "My Computer", has a keyboard you can only type on with chop sticks, and has a screen you'll need a microscope to read.

Speaking of which - does anyone use their PDA anymore? :)
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#10 Post by ducky2802 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:42 pm

Weren't the original thinkpads like the 240's with their ~3lbs, 10.4" displays, "sub-notebooks"?

I, personally, really like the idea of a sub-notebook, and think it would be a wonderful idea if lenovo could get back into the business of producing small laptops like the original IBM 240. Call it an x100 (10" display and upper 1lb range...kinda like how the x300 is 13" and ~3lbs), and Ill be the first to clamor at the website with an order!

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#11 Post by qviri » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:22 pm

Some good points raised.

I've handled a friend's Vaio TZ, and I've seen a couple of people carry/use the Eees around. No comment on usability as I haven't actually used one, but they sure do look impressive.

I didn't like the 7" Eee because I thought it gave up too much in terms of functionality without gaining enough in terms of size. The 800*480 resolution isn't enough in this class of a device, IMO. Obviously the Mininote went a long way to fix that with 1280*768.

Here's what I wrote a while back (before Mininote was heard of) on another forum:

"This device seems to fit an awkward niche... It's small, but still can't fit any but most generous pockets. It made a lot of sacrifices to be made this small, but because of the two-part form factor and lack of touchscreen it still can only be used sitting down like a standard laptop. It has a hardware keyboard, but apparently (haven't used one) the quality isn't great. It has a 7" screen, but the resolution is not enough for an extended amount of work or play..."

Personally I feel that by addressing the screen size/resolution, a lot of the problems were solved, as in I can actually see a way for the machine to be useful for me. I'd still heavily consider X series against something like this, but we're getting there.
iamdmc wrote:Why don't I buy a used T60 for $500 instead?
For one, the 14" T60 is almost twice as large, footprint wise.

I realise this isn't for everyone.

One problem I see is that machines like these are squarely consumer-oriented, in North America at least. The price point also indicates that, somewhat more in the case of the Eee, but $500 for the Mininote is still within the upper range for a gadget. I am not sure if Lenovo still has any pretensions of having Thinkpads be purely business-oriented after the Z and R series, but this could be pushing the limit. On the other hand, I do think Thinkpad features such as the Thinkpad keyboard and trackpoint would really improve the usability of this niche.

I have to think that there was a reason a newer S series machine wasn't made. What? I don't know. Nevertheless, it would be very interesting to see a S70 or a X100 (X090? S900?) if Lenovo could come up with a design.
iamdmc wrote:Micro-laptos are like the PDA you can't hold in your hand, that is awkward, has horrible battery life, takes forever to load "My Computer", has a keyboard you can only type on with chop sticks, and has a screen you'll need a microscope to read.

Speaking of which - does anyone use their PDA anymore? :)
This is something along my thoughts. I'm not sure what today's definition of a "PDA" would be - we've seen multiple devices merge into one or two.

I've just arranged to purchase a Nokia N800 internet tablet for $200. I've had one before so I have a fair idea what to expect. One of my planned uses is, indeed, PDA-like functionality. The N800 is designed to be used held in hands (and designed for that very well, I feel - they do require both hands though), the battery life is comparable to laptops with 3-4 hours of actual use, and it's not slow. (It lasts in excess of three days in standby and checks your feeds/email/keeps you on IM while at it. Wake up is instantaneous. Try that with an Eee.)

I find the full-touchscreen thumb keyboard to be pretty good given the circumstances, though of course there's no comparison to a full-size Thinkpad keyboard. The screen is 225 dpi (are you reading this, pianowizard?), but because of how it's used I don't find it to be a large problem (pun intended). It's an awesome email/news/feeds machine. Having a computer in your pocket can give you a few interesting perks - I had all local bus schedules downloaded to mine for convenience. It can also double as a music player because of the form factor.

At the same time, it is not a machine for extensive research or writing longer texts. That does require something with a bit more processing power for the former and a physical keyboard for the latter. Especially for the latter, the subnotes may get quite popular at schools, because let's face it, less weight and smaller dimensions are better provided the experience is "good enough".

Due to lack of personal experience, I've yet to decide if they are good enough or if the 12" X series form factor is the pinnacle for that usage.
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#12 Post by gator » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:01 pm

Dell just made an announcement, they have a low cost subnotebook coming out in June:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1207778 ... lenews_wsj
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#13 Post by Dead1nside » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:39 am

I like the sub-notebook category purely because it's pushing Linux. But now the companys are trying to up the size of the screens and thus the overall weight and size of the product just so they can slap XP on it. Windows XP is a good operating system but it's defying the point of making a sub-notebook.

Lenovo should make a sub-notebook with that famous butterfly keyboard, if they can make a sub-notebook with a great feeling keyboard then they'd corner the market. You just can't type on an Asus Eee PC, even though they are great little machines they're charging way too much for them and it's only going to get worse with the expansion of the product range.
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#14 Post by felixgogo » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:40 am

Ok, I have been a early adopter of the UMPC thing, first an EEE, then a Mininote 2133. Great fun.

But they are not a thinkpad. And I really would like Lenovo to do the UMPC thing, and I think they have the ability to do this with parts of the shelf.

This is how I figure.

The X6x series is excellent (I have 2) I love 'em. I reckon a keyboard from a X6x is the largest item this 'PocketPad' could use (It's OK - Lenovo - you can have the name... ;-) )

Measuring this item diagonally, including slightly smaller click buttons would determine the size diagonally of the machine. This measurement of the keyboard is 11". So the machine would be the same width as a X6x, 10.5", but only 6 inches deep, front to back. The mininote is 10.25" by 6.5" (Can you see where I'm going here...?)

This reminds me of an old 'Goodies' gag - where Graham produces a huge Pocket Calculator - and says, Yes it is Pocket calculator...you just need special pockets...haha...sorry.....I guess you had to be there......

OK back on topic - I guess the motherboard would have to be smaller - sorry not seen an X6x motherboard and we would have to lose some items - 2 USB instead of 3, no cardslot (but this could be moved to underneath the unit...and perhaps instead become a usb bay, where one could plug in 3G broadband modems and additional memory, internally... ) The thickness of the unit could be slightly thicker than a X6X series to allow for this.

Taking this diagonal size, we could just fit a 11" WS, with a lovely THIN bezel...perhaps the unit from the Ideapad - but without that glossy coating please. Must have a Webcam.

Keep the rear of the machine the same as the X6x, so it can share the power unit and power input plug - so I can use my existing power units, and extended batteries etc.

Don't need fingerprint reader - lose it.

32G SSD, XP Pro to keep the cost down, and Bob's a close relative.

So - Would I buy one of these. No. I would probably buy two!

Come on Lenovo - you have the one thing all the other UMPC manufactors don't - the trackpoint. This is the one thing that makes the unit a true UMPC - the ability to 'point' without a mouse.

Use last seasons CPUs, 1.6 or similar to keep the cost and power requirements down.

WIFI, Bluetooth, and the ability to add Wireless Broadband with a internal user accessable USB bay (not sticking out the side please...) and you would take the market in this segment - as you have in all serious laptop user segments.

Please retain the Thinkpad quality - this also sets Lenovo apart.

So there you have it - a Thinkpad UMPC, to all purposes the same size as the Mininote - FULL size quality X6x Thinkpad keyboard (The one on the Ideapad sucks IMHO.....), Trackpointer, and Black of course!

OK - that's my idea - any takers?

Ian

PS, Lenovo - Quite happy to take the first two production X110 to this spec in lieu of payment for this idea ;-)
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#15 Post by bobbarker » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:06 am

The whole UMPC deal is neat but it reminds me of the "Handheld PC" of the late 90's/early 2000's (Jornada 720, loved it). It's kind of flopping as a platform. There's no way to get good laptop performance *in* to your pocket (ah the N800 takes a good stab). You have to have big pockets to buy one and to carry it. :)

So- if you can't get it in your pocket now you're aiming at something that slips very easily in to a backpack or something. You shouldn't need a "laptop bag" to get it around. Something in the 10-12" range is *pretty* good and <$500. There's lots of things popping up new in that range...but it's all stuff like the Eee which is 900mhz and stuff using the Atom which is nice but from a performance standpoint is...worthless; 1.6ghz on that thing isn't much better than the 900mhz celeron the Eee has. To it's credit the Mininote hits a good mark. Decent resolution, decent power and a real hard drive, but it's at the top end of this price range.

Intel still makes the celeron, I'd like to see them start making the older centrino procs again and throwing those down instead of the Atom. They're decently powerful, low power draw and...

...well If you've not caught on already I'm leading in to the X31. Easily under $350, 1.6ghz is common on Fleabay, 1GB/512MB ram easy and it does anything and everything an Eee could dream of. The mininote give it a run for it's money but why don't people just look to older sub-notebooks (or whatever you want to call them)?

....of course this is my $.02 which nobody should care about :roll:
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#16 Post by pxa270 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:21 am

The Eee and even the Wind are significantly smaller than even an X60: http://www.itechnews.net/2008/05/26/msi ... -compared/
Whether that's a pro (more portable) or a con (less powerful, worse display/input) is entirely a matter of individual preference.

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Perhaps it is already on its way...

#17 Post by felixgogo » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:35 am

Lenovo announce their entry into the UMPC market - the S9 and S10, noit sure if these are thinkpads or ideapads. Let's hope they are Thinkpads with the trackpoint.....

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article ... 365151.htm

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#18 Post by kunfuchopsticks » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:38 am

Bottom Line: Why would you want anything with a footprint less than a piece of paper (8.5 by 11)?


and that HP sub notebook is still heavier than a X41. It doesn't have any advantages. The screen is puny, the keyboard is puny, the L2 cache is 1990's sized, the thing weights 2.86... and the size of the trackpad is size of a quarter.

And sub notebooks are so feminine I can't stand it. How would you like to be seen in a suit typing on a puny little "keypad".

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#19 Post by JaneL » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:55 am

kunfuchopsticks wrote:And sub notebooks are so feminine I can't stand it. How would you like to be seen in a suit typing on a puny little "keypad".
I don't find that comparison amusing.
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#20 Post by virge » Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:38 pm

kunfuchopsticks wrote:Bottom Line: Why would you want anything with a footprint less than a piece of paper (8.5 by 11)
I've always been attracted to the sub-notebooks. My progression was 560E -> 560x -> 570 -> 570E -> X23.

After going up sizewise to the 570 and back down to the X23. I have to say that its much more convenient using the X23 these days. When I switched to the 570E as my main machine, it was an improvement over the 560. The bigger screen was nice and the laptop was still thin although now it was wider and deeper. Since I was going to school at the time and carrying a book bag, my main concern was thickness because that determined how many books would fit.

Now that I have multiple machines, I find the X23 an excellent traveling laptop. For portability the size/weight become a bigger issue than screen size. The X23 fits on a airline tray much better than the 570E. I bet a widescreen 12.1" LCD would be an even better fit.

There's nothing feminine about it. Its just a matter of what machine is most suitable for a certain set of circumstances. I wear a suit and had no problems typing on my Jornada 720 at the last conference I went to. Maybe the looks I got were because it was feminine or maybe it was because the Jornada was just so cute! :lol: Regardless, it was the most suitable device for me at the time and that is my bottom line.*

* Bottom lines may vary. :D
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#21 Post by j-dawg » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:41 pm

kunfuchopsticks wrote:Bottom Line: Why would you want anything with a footprint less than a piece of paper (8.5 by 11)?
Because I am scrawny and subnotes are light.
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#22 Post by kunfuchopsticks » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:24 am

Yes, they are light but, like the HP sub, they still weight same if not more than X seris.

yes, sorry, the above bottom line is for me. I find it if anything is smaller than a piece of paper, it's actually a hassle, because then it becomes like a paperback book where it's hard to carry along with a notepad and folders.

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#23 Post by virge » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:38 pm

kunfuchopsticks wrote: I find it if anything is smaller than a piece of paper, it's actually a hassle, because then it becomes like a paperback book where it's hard to carry along with a notepad and folders.
That's a good point. When I was using the Jornada, it was fine to have it in my jacket pocket while going to different seminars. However, when placed inside a tote bag with conference materials, it tended to get lost.
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#24 Post by j-dawg » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:43 pm

I dunno. The EeePC is considerably lighter than an X-series. The problem is the size of the keyboard, though I'd assume one would get used to that after a while--certainly it's bigger than the keyboard on a Jornada 720.

But you're right when you say that having a tiny form factor isn't necessarily that great. What attracts me about the subnotes is weight, battery life, and price. We've got a bazillion floating-point operations per nanosecond and we're using them to check Facebook? A subnote does all of what we need when we're on the road and leaves the hard work--as well as a pound and a half and several hundred dollars--to our main systems.

Of course, you mention the HP subnote and how much it weighs. Well, that's where they're getting it wrong. Unfortunately, OEMs are starting to realize that they could sell far more of these if they put a proper hard drive in them and marketed them to stupid teenagers and gullible parents as a primary laptop on the cheap. The original Eee formula--cheap, SSD-based, minimal function--was good, but it needed to be cheaper. now they're putting hard drives in them and ruining them.
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#25 Post by Puppy » Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:14 am

UMPC with trackpoint would be nice :-) VIA Openbook or all these Kohjinsha products looks promising. Wondering whether Lenovo would like to step in there.
j-dawg wrote:We've got a bazillion floating-point operations per nanosecond and we're using them to check Facebook? A subnote does all of what we need when we're on the road and leaves the hard work--as well as a pound and a half and several hundred dollars--to our main systems.
That's the point. Something small and cheap to check emails, run IMs, read news, weather forecast ... nothing more. Smartphones are clumsy and limited while PDAs are missing keyboard. I believe current UMPCs with keyboard and full featured operating system are the way to go.
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#26 Post by pianowizard » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:46 am

kunfuchopsticks wrote:that HP sub notebook is still heavier than a X41. It doesn't have any advantages. The screen is puny, the keyboard is puny, the L2 cache is 1990's sized, the thing weights 2.86... and the size of the trackpad is size of a quarter.
The HP 2133 has several advantages over the X41:

1) It has a higher display resolution than the X41 (1280x768 vs. 1024x768). True, things look smaller, but I am used to high-DPI displays.

2) It can use 2.5" 7200rpm HDDs, whereas the X41 is stuck with 1.8" 4200rpm HDDs which are expensive and don't go beyond 60GB.

3) When used on a tray table on a plane, the HP's much smaller depth (6.50") is a huge advantage over the X41 (9.3").

I haven't seen the HP in person but judging from photos and dimensions, its keyboard is actually nearly the same size as that of the X41. The HP is 10.04" wide and its keyboard utilizes the entire width. The X41 is barely wider, at 10.5".

I would choose the HP 2133 over any non-X300 X-series Thinkpad any day. I might even prefer it to the X300, which is too big and way too expensive. But that's just my personal choice.
qviri wrote:I've just arranged to purchase a Nokia N800 internet tablet for $200...The screen is 225 dpi (are you reading this, pianowizard?), but because of how it's used I don't find it to be a large problem (pun intended).
I didn't read this thread until just now. My Palm Centro smartphone has a 2.0" 320x320 screen, which is 226 DPI. Such a DPI on a conventional laptop would drive me nuts, but on a PDA, I agree it's acceptable. IMO, this Palm Centro beats all sub-notebooks/UMPCs, because it's much smaller and lighter, and because it gives me internet access wherever I go ($38.76 per month for unlimited internet access, unlimited text messages, and almost unlimited phone usage). And it's surprisingly versatile considering its small size. I can open PDF files, work on MS Office documents, play FreeCell and other simple games, take photos and videos, play MP3, and its calendar is very nice. The thumb-board is actually quite easy to use -- many of my messages on this forum were typed on it. I suspect it's easier to use than the iPhone's touchscreen keyboard, because the Centro keyboard gives me tactile feedback. My only complaint is that the Centro makes terrible sound recordings, but that's not the end of the world because I have a Dell Axim X51v for that.
Last edited by pianowizard on Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Puppy
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#27 Post by Puppy » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:55 am

pianowizard wrote:The HP 2133 has several advantages over the X41
I completely agree with the display resolution. On the other hand it is missing trackpoint, it is too heavy (1.3 kg) and slow, short battery life (2 hours with WiFi turned on) and according reviews the fan is turned on most of the time.

And there is another model to consider - Panasonic CF-R6 (10.4" XGA - no widescreen, 1 kg)
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#28 Post by KristianJ » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:51 pm

Looks like we may see something in September, even though it seems more likely to be a small IdeaPad.
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#29 Post by obpsym » Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:37 am

I've had most of the mobile PDA / UMPC devices over the last 15 or 20 years starting with my Atari Portfolio, Omnibook 300, Sharp IQ series (with 2.4K Modem), Newtons, Zaurus 7500C, iPaq, Palm, Nokia N810, Nokia Communicator Etc Etc.

I need a pocket sized device that I can store information on, otherwise I'd be carting a laptop and bag around with me ALL the time.

At the moment I'm using an OQO with XP, specs are impressive, 1.6G, 1G RAM, 120G Drive, Trackpoint!!!, Digitizer, Wifi, BT 2.0, HSDPA.

This runs XP SP3, AutoCAD, Office 2007 fine and connects to my 23" display via HDMI, Keyboard, Mouse and Ethernet in the office.

When I leave the office I unplug it and stick it in my pocket, if I get a support call I don't have to deal with the restrictions of other devices, I can work without having a laptop.

UMPC's and PDA's are not perfect yet but they have come a long way in the last 20 years, I used to consider having a handheld device with Linux and either VNC or RDP available the best solution but sometimes connectivity was scarce and everything fell through and I would have to make a trip to the clients site.

Back on topic, I'm sure Lenovo is aware of the market and will respond as more devices are released, I do hope they go with something similar to the OQO which in my book is the best device on the market in a handheld form factor. (N810 and E90 were the worst purchases I've ever made)

I have an EeePC 900 and after a few weeks use I've given up on it, it's just not small enough and the CPU/Storage options are limited I need access to around 80G of data at any given moment.


With a Blackberry and a PC based handheld device you really are mobile. This is an expensive option but is more of a lifestyle choice which is worth it in my book.

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#30 Post by gator » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:32 pm

Puppy wrote:And there is another model to consider - Panasonic CF-R6 (10.4" XGA - no widescreen, 1 kg)
Wow, I din't know about that model ... looks great. Thanks Puppy.
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