New (To Me) W500 - A Couple of Issues

[ArtShapiro]

Just picked up a fairly nice W500 for a whopping $55.

Seems like a nice machine; I was surprised to find no fingerprint reader but I'll live.

A couple weird things are happening; perhaps someone has an idea or two.

The BIOS is sporadically changing from integrated graphics back to switchable graphics, It won't display anything once Windows 10 starts to boot if switchable graphics is enabled, and it works find with integrated graphics. Could the fact that it has Computrace enabled be relevant?

And when I hibernate, the moon light flashes forever - it never stops. I'm forced to force-power-down. Yet when I restart, it clearly has hibernated, for the machine comes back to life the way it was upon attempting the hibernation. I've disabled and re-enabled hibernation without affecting the issue.

Any insight would be welcome!

Art

[TPFanatic]

Mmmm, Windows 10 and Switchable Graphics are a nono. There is neither a good ATI driver or a Switchable Graphics driver for Windows 10. Switchable Graphics itself requires Lenovo Power Manager which isn't 100% functional in 10 either.

The reason the BIOS keeps switching it back to [Switchable] is because of another option, OS Detection in the same pane. OS Detection for Switchable Graphics will automatically enable Switchable Graphics if you're running Vista or newer. After disabling OS Detection for Switchable Graphics, it will stop re-enabling itself.

I've done extensive testing of a T500 with Switchable Graphics running Windows 10 and they're just incompatible. You can run your laptop in Integrated only just fine but you lose Displayport output with in Switchable machines because the Displayport goes through the ATI chip. So for 100% functionality I recommend Windows 7.

Have fun with your W500, it's a laptop with quite a personality if I say so myself. In my opinion it's the last iteration of the classic "p" suffix workstation design because it's got the onFireGL and high power CPU crammed into such a thin (for its time) case.

[ArtShapiro]

After disabling OS Detection for Switchable Graphics, it will stop re-enabling itself.

Thanks - after posting the message I noticed that option and disabled it. And the machine rebooted without incident. So thanks for confirming that I did something right.

I'm happy with Windows 10, so if I lose a little bit of non-critical functionality due to the unsupported OS, I'll live. This installation was just a clone of my T500, and as expected it came up fine.

Art

[n2ri]

TPFanatic said it all. main issue you have is trying to run any good Thinkpad with Win 10. you will never get to use over half the features as Win10 dont think you need to. ditch Win10 (not an easy quick task I know but doable) put Win7 64bit Ultra on and watch that TP fly. oh BTW may want to install TP fan control ini file 3rd party app to help keep it cool as W500s like to heat up when worked and factory cooling control wont catch it b4 it shuts down on overheat safty. mine does fine now also helps heats my bedroom hehe. Microsoft newer than Win7 disables most great IBM TP features so I disabled all newer MS products and have boycotted them since trying Win10 (Win8 plus). I will say however I am still going to add a W520 to my TP family as it is the last of the best in that long series of IBM greats b4 Lenovo tech changed all future laptops and eliminated many great features. and the W700 series was just too big with no added functions the W520 didnt offer really. the W5xx series where all power hogs though and used much more Watts doing all that workstation stuff and Graphics. I still use my T61 for most old easy usage and peripherals in 32bit. but the W5xx series are great for modern stuff and surfing/browsing/Graphics etc. even more than most new laptops for just a bit more size than those yet better than any desktops. unless needing far more than 2 HDDs or surround sound. also love the W500 display jack with an adapter to HDMI to use my huge flat screen TV for monitor to play videos and see things easier with my old Eyes ;^)

[TPFanatic]

I forgot, but Windows 10 also has no PCMCIA support.

[n2ri]

I believe in frequent backups at least monthly on an external hard drive or one in a swap bay from all my laptops using a 1-2 TB HDD so if anything happens to one laptop I have data still and can use any of my Thinkpads as spare until recovered for all my tasks including 3D printer. even though it would be terrible still not forever lost. can also use virtual multi OS on the TPs so like WinXP32bit, Win764bit plus like Linux or ? and use the most secure for web browsing.

[ArtShapiro]

I believe in frequent backups ...
can also use virtual multi OS on the TPs...

All my machines are backed up daily to Windows Home Server.

And I also use multi-boots; the R61 is W10 and W7, because of a program that will run only on 7 and below. The T500 is W10 and W8.1 for no particular reason. I decided to keep this new guy solely on W10.

Still baffled by the hibernation issue, which turns out to also affect sleep.

Art

[n2ri]

I forgot, but Windows 10 also has no PCMCIA support.

nor many Thinkpad features like fingerprint reader, bluetooth, WIFI, tools, utilities, etc. its like MS owns your laptop and you are just their employee with permission to for limited use of it with only their signed apps which you pay for monthly even on same. and near zero offline use or even games. very boring also most data is in their cloud not your hard drive. but hey you can sync with your Cel/Tablet ;^P like ya couldnt with the old system? come on MS we know your games. IBM TPs have had more features than MS for decades. I tested Win10 on my W500 and dam near went crazy in just a week trying to do half what I could b4. thats when I found this site and searched all the 'How to remove Win10 completely' topics also had to get a new Win7 key as MS built in hacking software to shut you out of ever going back as they promise. it took me a month but I have been Win10/MS current free for over a year now and never looking back. I loaded allthe IBM addons I could on my W500 and it can out perform ANY new laptop running Win10 like they are on a tablet running DOS off an SD card and Im on a Raid server machine. LMAO

[n2ri]

I believe in frequent backups ...
can also use virtual multi OS on the TPs...

All my machines are backed up daily to Windows Home Server.

And I also use multi-boots; the R61 is W10 and W7, because of a program that will run only on 7 and below. The T500 is W10 and W8.1 for no particular reason. I decided to keep this new guy solely on W10.

Still baffled by the hibernation issue, which turns out to also affect sleep.

Art

yes daily backups may be needed depending on usage. also duel backups/reboot disc copies after any updates or installs in case of issues or virus. but relying on their cloud makes my skin crawl.

yeah Win10 over rides any feature like that. it never allows you to 'shutdown' due to its feature of remote access by your other devices and Microsoft when they decide to invade your privacy even if your not around. read the guide but be prepared for shocks as you do. some times you have to remove battery power to stop them, even BIOS is "infected"/effected by Win10 ;^)

[n2ri]

also if your Laptop has the Computrace feature in its Bios especially if you got it 2nd hand and never programed yourself as owner MS pretty much owns it now. its why I disabled it on mine even if it was not installed as one of the 1st offline/radios off things when I bought it. it was a great idea when new and IBM still operated the old Thinkvantage tools utility as a theft prevention due to it could shut down and disable the laptop upon reporting it stolen 1st time it came online. but now you just have to use 3rd party GPS type apps. 1st thing W10 does is flag your old OS Key as fake so it wont work anymore and if its an unsupported OS fat chance of finding a new one. thats why W10 is free (like 1st try of Drugs then your hooked to buy). most features require purchase/subscriptions to use or upgrade regularly.

[ArtShapiro]

I forgot, but Windows 10 also has no PCMCIA support.

nor many Thinkpad features like fingerprint reader, bluetooth, WIFI, tools, utilities, etc. its like MS owns your laptop

That is patently absurd. If you don't like Windows 10, fine, but don't make ridiculous assertions like this.

Art

[TPFanatic]

nor many Thinkpad features like fingerprint reader, bluetooth, WIFI, tools, utilities, etc. its like MS owns your laptop

That is patently absurd. If you don't like Windows 10, fine, but don't make ridiculous assertions like this.

Art

Agreed. The FPR, Bluetooth, and of course the Wifi all work on the TPs I've tried 10 on. And I figured out how to get the Hotkey Features Integration to work in 10, with the Communications Utility and EZEject Utility, while Fn+F2 and Fn+F5 do everything they're supposed to do.

The only hotkey I'm not using is Fn+F3 because I'm using Settings instead of Power Manager.

Win 10 isn't my preferred OS for the reasons I've already stated but it's certainly not as bad as some would make it seem.


Edit: You can see this post's advice about Computrace.
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=114641

[MisterB]

The switchable graphics are the only device that doesn't work on a W500 in Windows 10. Windows 10 also overheated the machine during installation and I had to elevate it on rails so air could circulate around it to keep it from a thermal shutdown. After installation it worked normally but I kept the switchable graphics on Intel. I used the July 2015 original release that still allowed Power Manager. Since installation, I haven't used it at all and am running Windows 7 ultimate on my W500. Windows 10 is the unused option on my boot menu.

[TPFanatic]

Hey.

I'm here to say that today I tried ATI graphics in Windows 10 and, surprisingly for me, it worked.

First I went to the BIOS and set the graphics to "Dedicated", not Switchable and I kept OS Detection disabled.

After starting the computer and booting into Windows, the machine took its sweet time downloading and installing an ATI driver all by itself through, I presume, Windows Update while displaying a blank black screen for longest time. Then the display reappeared, in low res, and after awhile set itself to native resolution.

I can modify the brightness.

The driver seems to be from 2015, I didn't look at it much. I played a few games and it seems to work as well as it should.

So, ATI graphics by itself (not Switchable Graphics) seems to work in Windows 10.

[ArtShapiro]

Well, it's even weirder than I stated!

I tried a plain ol' "shut down", which is something I rarely do, and the same perpetually-flashing-moonlight occurred.

I don't know if I have a Windows issue or a hardware issue. Might try a quick jury-rigged Windows 7 installation when I have some time to experiment.

Art

[jaspen-meyer]

I don't know if I have a Windows issue or a hardware issue.

Your hardware's a ThinkPad; you have a Windows issue.

[iaeaix]

Windows 8 works nice on W500, never tried win10 on it but I guess it would be too heavy

[ArtShapiro]

Windows 8 works nice on W500, never tried win10 on it but I guess it would be too heavy

But it works perfectly well on a T500; I had the reasonable assumption of success on the similar W series machine.

Art

[s4mus_4r4n]

It’s funny , I got EVERYTHING working short of switchable graphics. Including PC Cards (sb x-fi for the win) once at a desk i’d Be more than happy to share what I used to get it going (even fingerprint reader!) I restored a w500 and w700 this week and have been able to use it at full capacity and switch game mode on and use them to even game well with the right drivers

[n2ri]

That is patently absurd. If you don't like Windows 10, fine, but don't make ridiculous assertions like this.

Art

Agreed. The FPR, Bluetooth, and of course the Wifi all work on the TPs I've tried 10 on. And I figured out how to get the Hotkey Features Integration to work in 10, with the Communications Utility and EZEject Utility, while Fn+F2 and Fn+F5 do everything they're supposed to do.

The only hotkey I'm not using is Fn+F3 because I'm using Settings instead of Power Manager.

Win 10 isn't my preferred OS for the reasons I've already stated but it's certainly not as bad as some would make it seem.


Edit: You can see this post's advice about Computrace.
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=114641

none of those features would work for me with W10 and no such devices or drivers were found by W10 as it runs your PC like its now a corporate dummy terminal that you need permissions to use. also it wont ever shut down but rather hibernates so MS can login when ever and "update/upgrade and do security to make sure you dont have anything on "your PC" they dont approve. count me out on big brother stealing my PC. I wont do away with half the features I bought my TPs for just to "trust the cloud" with my personal computer info. buy a tablet instead. We shouldnt have to hack an OS to use our laptops how we intended. then it uses over 10gb just for system files!! WTH thats more than most older TPs had total including all programs etc. and nothing is stored other than that on HDD its like turning your TP into a sandbox/virtual browser and becoming just a guest user on your own computer/tablet with parental settings.

[n2ri]

Just picked up a fairly nice W500 for a whopping $55.

Seems like a nice machine; I was surprised to find no fingerprint reader but I'll live.

A couple weird things are happening; perhaps someone has an idea or two.

The BIOS is sporadically changing from integrated graphics back to switchable graphics, It won't display anything once Windows 10 starts to boot if switchable graphics is enabled, and it works find with integrated graphics. Could the fact that it has Computrace enabled be relevant?

And when I hibernate, the moon light flashes forever - it never stops. I'm forced to force-power-down. Yet when I restart, it clearly has hibernated, for the machine comes back to life the way it was upon attempting the hibernation. I've disabled and re-enabled hibernation without affecting the issue.

Any insight would be welcome!

Art

long as you use Win10 you dont have admin rights anymore to "shut down" only Hibernate so MS can access when ever. it will run battery dead if no power is plugged in or lines down more than couple days but files are in cloud now long as its not inaccessible for some reason or your MS account is in good standing. read the user agreement if you can stay awake long enough, you may be shocked.

[ArtShapiro]

long as you use Win10 you dont have admin rights anymore to "shut down" only Hibernate so MS can access when ever. it will run battery dead if no power is plugged in or lines down more than couple days but files are in cloud now long as its not inaccessible for some reason or your MS account is in good standing. read the user agreement if you can stay awake long enough, you may be shocked.

This forum should not be used to spread misinformation. Most Windows 10 machines shut down just fine. This machine won't stop the moon light flashing after hibernation, although it does, in fact, hibernate. The behavior is consistent with a temporarily-installed Win 8.1. It's a hardware issue of some sort.

Art

[n2ri]

long as you use Win10 you dont have admin rights anymore to "shut down" only Hibernate so MS can access when ever. it will run battery dead if no power is plugged in or lines down more than couple days but files are in cloud now long as its not inaccessible for some reason or your MS account is in good standing. read the user agreement if you can stay awake long enough, you may be shocked.

This forum should not be used to spread misinformation. Most Windows 10 machines shut down just fine. This machine won't stop the moon light flashing after hibernation, although it does, in fact, hibernate. The behavior is consistent with a temporarily-installed Win 8.1. It's a hardware issue of some sort.

Art

when I tried Win 10 on my W500 during the so called free trial (never could switch back easy to win 7 as promised. MS turns key obsolete and no longer supported for new key issue plus what can only be termed as Trojan files trying to go back to Win 10) the only option for shutdown was Hibernate. shutdown was greyed out or gone from most start key options and if found would only hibernate unless hard shutdown performed. so I am just telling what I personally experienced and why I had Win10 exorcised from my W500 within 1 week of trial. how is that false/misinformation? when I searched or asked MS about it I learned its how MS designed it so they could watch/upgrade your computer etc at their convenience through their also built in remote sharing app. if this all changed since introduction of Win 10 due to all the people bailing MS over it. then I never heard. when you 1st login MS is admin and you have to setup a user group (like at an office LAN) and you become a user with lots of limited rights on your own computer (paying members may do better) the only way I could get out of that new group was close my MS account as if terminating employment or contract. then my old Home group came back from my prev OS install. if this is different for some of you, maybe you pay MS account for better options or something IDK.

[RealBlackStuff]

Here are a few methods to fully shut down W10: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/741 ... -10-a.html

And if Cortana doesn't help, try Alexa or Idiota or Crapia or whatever they call them nowadays...

[SurrealMustard]

This forum should not be used to spread misinformation. Most Windows 10 machines shut down just fine. This machine won't stop the moon light flashing after hibernation, although it does, in fact, hibernate. The behavior is consistent with a temporarily-installed Win 8.1. It's a hardware issue of some sort.

Art

when I tried Win 10 on my W500 during the so called free trial (never could switch back easy to win 7 as promised. MS turns key obsolete and no longer supported for new key issue plus what can only be termed as Trojan files trying to go back to Win 10) the only option for shutdown was Hibernate. shutdown was greyed out or gone from most start key options and if found would only hibernate unless hard shutdown performed. so I am just telling what I personally experienced and why I had Win10 exorcised from my W500 within 1 week of trial. how is that false/misinformation? when I searched or asked MS about it I learned its how MS designed it so they could watch/upgrade your computer etc at their convenience through their also built in remote sharing app. if this all changed since introduction of Win 10 due to all the people bailing MS over it. then I never heard. when you 1st login MS is admin and you have to setup a user group (like at an office LAN) and you become a user with lots of limited rights on your own computer (paying members may do better) the only way I could get out of that new group was close my MS account as if terminating employment or contract. then my old Home group came back from my prev OS install. if this is different for some of you, maybe you pay MS account for better options or something IDK.

To echo what has been said earlier, please do not spread this type of misinformation as truth. There's nothing special about the way that any of the operating systems referred to as "Windows 10" shut down. Starting with Windows 8, a hybrid shutdown feature was introduced (and is enabled by default) which, when the user clicks shut down, causes the computer to (kind-of-sort-of) log off and hibernate (here's a link to Microsoft's official article on the topic from 2011). If you don't like this, you can easily disable it in the power settings.

Neither mode uses any more power than hibernate and shutdown did in any prior version of Windows (that is to say, zero). The only power-saving mode that is new to Windows 8+ in which the computer can exchange information on the network is the "connected standby" state (see Microsoft's official article on this as well). This was introduced in Windows 8 and apparently improved upon (by way of enabling a special "disconnected" mode) in Windows 10.

To conclude - are there some legitimate concerns over the anti-privacy features found in Windows 10? Yes; nobody disputes that. However, these unfounded stories about whatever it is that you're going on about do not help that.

[n2ri]

as for overheating issues that is a constant battle with W500 TPs due to high speed Graphics and CPU in a thin T61 case with screens added in the intake vents on bottom restricting the already low air flow so keeping clean/dust free and replacing the Heat past on processor chips at recommended times or sooner if used much or lots of Gaming etc. also install Think Pad Fan Control app to monitor temps. I can live with it for the super performance it has at lower power than anything like it made since. I run Win7 64bit on My W500s and use large screen High Def monitors easy 1080p. and when docked can turn off laptop display and save it from burning out longer.

[ThinkTwinki]

as for overheating issues that is a constant battle with W500 TPs due to high speed Graphics and CPU in a thin T61 case with screens added in the intake vents on bottom restricting the already low air flow so keeping clean/dust free and replacing the Heat past on processor chips at recommended times or sooner if used much or lots of Gaming etc. also install Think Pad Fan Control app to monitor temps. I can live with it for the super performance it has at lower power than anything like it made since. I run Win7 64bit on My W500s and use large screen High Def monitors easy 1080p. and when docked can turn off laptop display and save it from burning out longer.

Overheating is a mess -- on OpenBSD.

ACPID isn't configured out of the box, so I spent a few months of reaching 100C temps every 45 minutes.

The biggest thing that stopped the cooling cycles (shutdown because of critical temps) was switching off switchable graphics. It's set to integrated and my temps are pretty stable right now.

The other thing is to set

"hw.perfpolicy=auto"

in "/etc/sysctl.conf" so CPU scaling is enabled. Or, if you want the coolest temps possible, set perfpolicy to "manual" and add "hw.setperf=0". So now it's throttled to the minimum.

And enable

Code: Select all

apmd_flags="-A"

in "/etc/rc.conf.local" for automatic cooling management.

In other news, my W500 has been slowly developing schizophrenia, and now doesn't boot from anything but one OpenBSD HDD. No USB, no disk, etc.

My drives are also inexplicably getting heavily fragmented on this machine.

It's only a matter of time until it comes for me in my sleep.