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My "R60 Project"

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schen
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My "R60 Project"

#1 Post by schen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:07 pm

I've come up with a little project here at school the last week and thought I'd put it out there to our little expert community here at ThinkPad Forum for input.

I teach at a suburban Dallas high school here in Texas, where I also sponsor the computer club. We are a relatively new school (5 years) and therefore still in the process of developing groups. As part of this, I sent out an email to the staff asking for old computing equipment donations so the students can "play" with them to learn on. I received a reply from our robotics teacher that he had a closet with "some" parts in it and I could have it all if their director gave permission. To make a long story shorter, I received permission a couple of weeks ago and went down there to see what was there. To my surprise, they not only had quite a lot of parts, but also a stack of older ThinkPads (R60s) taken out of service a few years ago. These are pretty low-spec'd machines with 40Gb HDDs, 512Mb of RAM (yes, our director of IT is an idiot), and 1st gen Core Duo CPUs. One thing led to another, and we came up with the idea that we could use in a C.O.W. (computer on wheels) setup so that classrooms could take advantage of them.

So, here's the issue. They are old and slow with Windows XP COAs. The majority of them are configured as follows:

14" XGA screens
Core Duo CPUs (typically T2400)
512Mb of RAM (in one stick)
40Gb/5400rpm SATA drives
DVD/CDRW combo drives
9 Cell extended batteries that are original, so probably on their last legs
Windows XPP C.O.A.s

All they need to do is to boot to some OS and run decently on Wifi to give access to a browser that can run Google Docs and/general Internet use.

My question is: what would you do to get these 25 machines up and running decently for the least amount expended as possible? I have some ideas, but would love to hear other folks to see if there's anything I haven't thought about before. Obviously, being a public school, cost is an issue!

Thanks in advance everyone.
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
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600X
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#2 Post by 600X » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:21 pm

Two weak points that I see are the RAM and the HDD. I'm guessing they all have 1x512MB modules installed, so adding another 1GB or 2GB stick to each model should be sufficient. While you may not need much hard drive space, those small drives are extremely slow. I'm sure you can get 80-160GB SATA drives for pretty cheap. If no files need to be stored on the device, then you might even be able to find some 32/40GB SSD's within you budget, which should boost performance considerably.

The T2400 CPU is actually pretty decent for simple tasks, so I wouldn't spend any money there. The XGA resolution only provides very little space on the screen, but upgrading them all to SXGA+ would involve to much effort and cost too much. Before throwing out any batteries, I'd recalibrate each and check the leftover capacity. You might be surprised to find that a few are in good shape.

Since you want to connect these machines to the internet you should use Linux, as XP is not being provided with updates anymore.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#3 Post by Medessec » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:02 pm

Putting Linux on the computers is a pretty good idea... it'll give the kids a different computing experience, and a broader sense of what software is and give them a much better idea of how hardware works.

One thing you can do that my computer teacher did is take apart a desktop, then nail the individual components to the wall, like the motherboard/CD Drive/HDD/CPU/RAM/PSU, for demonstrative purposes.
Trying my hardest to collect Thinkpads, but college and being broke kinda gets in the way. However...
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#4 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:37 pm

You could still continue with XP till 2019, as was just posted: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=115289
You'll need to make a small change in the XP-registry on all of your R60s.
Make one file, copy on a USB stick, then boot each PC in XP and double-click on that USB file: done.
By 2019 they'd probably all be 'goners' anyway.

1GB RAM (either PC2-5300 or PC2-6400) on eBay is about $5-7 each.
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schen
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#5 Post by schen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:46 pm

Here's what I had already considered as viable options, which I didn't want to put out so just so I could get more feedback:

* Need more RAM, but I was thinking two, which after reading your thoughts, I'm thinking that 1.5Gb may be sufficient for a non-windows/memory-hog machine.
* Would LOVE to do a small SSD if I can find enough small ones cheap since I'm an absolute believer in their benefits.
* I'm on the fence about upgrading the CPU to C2D, along the lines of T5600 since they are so cheap. Heck; I've even recently bought 3 T7200 for prices ranging from $5 to $8!
* I had already thought about Linux due to it generally being faster on older hardware, but I'd love to hear from others on which flavor they'd recommend both from the standpoint of useability as well as easy of load and maintenance. My initial though was Ubuntu, but I'm open to others. Remember, my staff will be a bunch of high schoolers who don't have much experience!

I'm going to put together a "proof of concept" machine when my T7200s show up with that processor, a 40Gb Intel SSD, and 1.5Gb of RAM to show our Principal. All those parts should add up to less than $50 per unit. However, that's still $1250! That's more money than our little club can sustain.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#6 Post by Cigarguy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:11 pm

Definitely recommend Linux, RAM and if possible a SSD.

I did something like this recently with 50 T61 to Cambodia for a school for children victims of landmines. Landmine don't usually kill but are design to lame so we founded a school to teach these kids back in the mid 1980s.

Was able to source locally cheap 1 GB DDR2 SODIMMS for $5 each but most of the modules were free as people don't want them anymore (2 GB/T61). We got lucky and found 32 GB Samsung SLC SSD for $20 each. Added a 1 TB HDD via Ultrabay adapters for 10 T61 destined for the teachers for data. The CPU range from T7100 to T7500 and we left those alone. On all machines we install Linux Mint.

I found the SSD to be the biggest improvement over the stock 80 GB 5400 rpm HDD, bigger than even going from 1 GB to 2 GB of RAM. About 3/4 of the machines had no HDD when we bought them so $20 for the SSD was a no brainer.

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Re: My "R60 Project"

#7 Post by ilakast » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:18 pm

I will differ a little bit to the rest that recommended hardware upgrades: don't spend a dime. Grab a lightweight linux distro and have a go, you've got nothing to lose apart from a morning (or two) :mrgreen:

My $0.03:
1. http://kolibrios.org/en/index
2. http://solydxk.com/homeedition/solydx/
3. Zorin OS Educational http://www.zorin-os.com/free.html
What are the minimum system requirements that I need to install Zorin OS?

For the Zorin Desktop based versions (not Lite):
1 GHz x86 processor
5 GB of Hard Drive space
512 MB of system memory (RAM)
Graphics card capable of 640x480 resolution
I'll be dead honest and say I haven't tried any of these, but should technical problems arise, the linux community is out here to help out.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#8 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:00 pm

Found a cheap RAM seller: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-10-Mixed ... 51c0095d9e
You can also make an offer, he has more than 100 modules!

New 40GB Intel 320 SSD for ~$50 each: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-320-Serie ... 2eca7e07e8
Try making an offer as well, although not listed.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#9 Post by jronald » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:00 pm

If they take DDR2, Ill give you 512mb modules. I think I have 20 to 30 Ill donate to the cause. A plain Linux Distro should run fine on 1 gig. I have an R40 running Zorin like a bat out of hades on less than a gig.

Ron
I see in my son's eyes, each day, the wonders I have squandered fortunes to possess and have sought my entire lifetime to attain. jrr 09/2011


T400's and T500's

schen
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#10 Post by schen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:14 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:Found a cheap RAM seller: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-10-Mixed ... 51c0095d9e
You can also make an offer, he has more than 100 modules!

New 40GB Intel 320 SSD for ~$50 each: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-320-Serie ... 2eca7e07e8
Try making an offer as well, although not listed.
That looks perfect and I'll probably go that route when I get a few ducks lined up. The most challenging hurdle to get over has to do with the use of public monies. The use of an "unapproved" vendor is a difficult process, and something I'll have to spend considerable time and effort to get the bugs ironed out!

My plan is to use my own part/money to create 1 or more "proof of concept" machines. Make my plea for funding the project and present my plan for parts acquisition. Then cross my fingers that the powers that be have some "discretionary" funds that are relatively free of red tape, so I can use eBay and get it done at sensible per unit price. I'd like to set up about 3 machines with different Linux loads and look at how that run. So far my candidate list include:

*Ubuntu
*Mint
*???

Anybody have other thoughts on this?
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
Work- Sadly, the ThinkPads have gone away...... and replaced by HP Chromebox drone machines :(
ThinkPad Projects- T530, T400, R60, Z60t
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Neil
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#11 Post by Neil » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:24 pm

Skip Ubuntu...one of the most resource hungry distributions. Xubuntu or Lubuntu might be candidates.
The main edition of Mint is build on Ubuntu and the Cinnamon desktop is heavier that Unity. Mint MATE could be OK though.
I would put AntiX on your short list. It's probably the best Debian based distro for older low spec machines. It'll run just fine with your current 512MB RAM, and 40GB HDD. No need for upgrades!
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#12 Post by ajkula66 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:31 pm

Add Peppermint to your distro list. Pretty darn light and should work well even with a very limited amount of RAM.

Personally, I'd add 1GB stick to each of those and call it a day. I'd also - as previously recommended - check the batteries because you might just get lucky with those...

Good luck.
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Cheers,

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One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

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schen
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#13 Post by schen » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:44 pm

ajkula66 wrote:Add Peppermint to your distro list. Pretty darn light and should work well even with a very limited amount of RAM.

Personally, I'd add 1GB stick to each of those and call it a day. I'd also - as previously recommended - check the batteries because you might just get lucky with those...

Good luck.
I'll take a look at Peppermint since I've only ever used Ubuntu and Mint. However, Zorin is rapidly growing on me.

I also think I'm going to try just adding another 512Mb since Ron generously offered enough sticks to do the machines I have on hand.

You can bet, I'm going to test out every battery we have. I've come across some old batteries that were just amazing for their age.
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
Work- Sadly, the ThinkPads have gone away...... and replaced by HP Chromebox drone machines :(
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#14 Post by jronald » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:47 pm

Stan
Memory went out this morning!

Ron
I see in my son's eyes, each day, the wonders I have squandered fortunes to possess and have sought my entire lifetime to attain. jrr 09/2011


T400's and T500's

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Re: My "R60 Project"

#15 Post by jronald » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:39 am

Stan give us all an update on your project!

Ron
I see in my son's eyes, each day, the wonders I have squandered fortunes to possess and have sought my entire lifetime to attain. jrr 09/2011


T400's and T500's

schen
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#16 Post by schen » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:04 am

After several days of alternately working on the A31 Project and fighting some sort of sinus issue, I finally got around to working on the R60. I started out trying to create a "Super-60" and that went well, right up until it didn't!

I put a T7200 CPU in it, followed by 4Gb of RAM and an SSD. As you can guess, that resulted in a pretty snappy machine. Then it repeatedly locked up. Suspecting that it was disagreeing with the RAM, I replaced it with another pair..... then another pair. So, 3 pairs of correctly spec'd RAM down the road, it's looking like the machine just doesn't like the T7200.

So, tomorrow night, I'll put the old CPU back in there and see what happens. It's not the hardest thing ever, just a pain in the nether regions since you have to unscrew the left hinge to get the fan out. :evil:
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#17 Post by ZaZ » Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:27 am

I replaced the CPU on a 14" and 15" R60. I don't recall having to unscrew the left hinge to get the fan out.
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schen
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#18 Post by schen » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:01 am

ZaZ wrote:I replaced the CPU on a 14" and 15" R60. I don't recall having to unscrew the left hinge to get the fan out.
The fan can come out without unscrewing the hinge if you unscrew the Firewire card. If not, then the cable which runs over the fan doesn't give enough slack to get the fan out. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
Work- Sadly, the ThinkPads have gone away...... and replaced by HP Chromebox drone machines :(
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#19 Post by brchan » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:05 am

I agree with others that Ubuntu is not the best Linux distro choice since it uses the heavy UNITY desktop environment. Lubuntu is a good choice, or even Crunchbang Linux if you want even more speed (generally very easy to set up but may require a couple more steps). Also, 2GB ram should be ample for word processing, email, and internet. The only time you might need more is if you do video editing, android development (ran out of memory a couple times), gaming, etc.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#20 Post by ZaZ » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:33 pm

schen wrote:The fan can come out without unscrewing the hinge if you unscrew the Firewire card. If not, then the cable which runs over the fan doesn't give enough slack to get the fan out. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
That's not the way I did it, but to each his or her own.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#21 Post by axur-delmeria » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:28 am

1. Monitor the temps. Either the CPU or northbridge could be crashing due to overheating. Clean the heatsink, apply new thermal paste, and change the northbridge thermal pad as necessary.

2. Test the RAM. Use a dedicated tester like Memtest86+ http://www.memtest.org/

3. Stress-test the CPU. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Stress_Test has a few ideas.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#22 Post by schen » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:28 am

axur-delmeria wrote:1. Monitor the temps. Either the CPU or northbridge could be crashing due to overheating. Clean the heatsink, apply new thermal paste, and change the northbridge thermal pad as necessary.

2. Test the RAM. Use a dedicated tester like Memtest86+ http://www.memtest.org/

3. Stress-test the CPU. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Stress_Test has a few ideas.
The first thing I did was to clean and apply a new coat of thermal paste. Although I haven't run Memtest86 yet, it's unlikely that 3 successive sets of RAM would be bad. The next thing would be to run tests since a number of people on this forum have successfully run the T7x00 processors on these machines. I'll also need to double-check the CPU fan to make sure it's running OK.
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#23 Post by ScottyBoy » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:13 pm

Just a thought but did you upgrade the BIOS to the maximum supported release and/or do you have a 3rd party BIOS installed over the top of it as well?

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Re: My "R60 Project"

#24 Post by schen » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:52 pm

ScottyBoy wrote:Just a thought but did you upgrade the BIOS to the maximum supported release and/or do you have a 3rd party BIOS installed over the top of it as well?
Thanks for this thought. I was just on the verge of going this route since it finally occurred to me that these were old school computers and that the rather haphazard IT support most probably didn't update the BIOS from the original versions. Unfortunately, the flu caught up with me this weekend (after Cat-Scratch Fever) and really slowed me down.

As it turns out; so far, so good. The machine has been up for about 30 minutes now doing updates and such without one freeze-up. So, I'll keep my fingers cross that this is THE solution and move on from here.

As such, this machine will be the high-end "Proof of Concept" for the project with: pretty much maxed out RAM at 4Gb, Top-end (relatively) CPU in the T7200, and an Intel SSD. I have it running Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit and a relatively basic load of applications including Office. Now the next step is to move on down to the lower end of the concept with no, CPU upgrade, and the RAM at 1Gb, the original 40Gb/5400rpm HDD running Zorin.
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#25 Post by Insomniac1971 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:51 am

Take a look at Peppermint linux, its small and has ubuntu's repo's. I used it to setup a 400Mhz PII desktop using only old Hardware, and made that one look like Windows 7(for those who don't know linux).

It works pretty decent and I use the newest Firefox as browser, with flash and Java enabled.

Then installed Libreoffice and its fully compatible with MS office.

I were going to set up an internet class here for old people, but nobody signed up:(

Anyways, that's my suggestion:)

With kind regards

JBJ
Live life to to fullest:) I do!
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#26 Post by schen » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:16 pm

I've got a weird issue that I can't seem to resolve, so I'm throwing it out there for ideas. The machine has been upgraded to what I'd call "Super-R60" spec with a T7200, 4Gb of RAM, 40Gb SSD, Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit. I did this to see just how far this platform would go.

* It loaded up and did all the usual updates just fine.
* Then it started locking up 3-5 seconds after the desktop loads.

What I've done since:

* Updated BIOS to newest version.
* Try 3 different sets of RAM in different configurations of 1 stick, 2 sticks, 1Gb, 2Gb, 4Gb. No difference.
* Reinstall the original T5500 cpu in place of the T7200. No difference.

It acts like a driver loading up is stopping the parade.

* Try Safe Mode. Locks up immediately as well.

About to start "Head-banging" Mode :evil: Anyone with better options?
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
Work- Sadly, the ThinkPads have gone away...... and replaced by HP Chromebox drone machines :(
ThinkPad Projects- T530, T400, R60, Z60t
Historic Retired ThinkPads- Z61m (Titanium), X20, A31p, 701c, 760XD, WorkPad C505, C500 :bow:

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Re: My "R60 Project"

#27 Post by schen » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:32 pm

OK. Here's an update. I took the RAM and W7 loaded SSD and moved it over to another of the R60s. Lo and behold, it's happily running and loading up another 100+ updates. I guess, there was just flat-out something wrong with the first machine.
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
Work- Sadly, the ThinkPads have gone away...... and replaced by HP Chromebox drone machines :(
ThinkPad Projects- T530, T400, R60, Z60t
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#28 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:34 pm

Two shots in the dark:

a) Have you tested the setup with another hard drive?

b) Have you tried loading Linux instead to see whether that would start locking up after a while as well?
...Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules...(King Crimson)

Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

One FlexView to rule them all: A31p

Abused daily: T520, X200s


PMs requesting personal tech support will be ignored.

schen
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#29 Post by schen » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:34 pm

Well; the weirdness continues. Zorin loaded up just fine on that machine with the exact same hard drive and the original cpu. The only difference is that it has some other sticks of RAM in it, but that original memory is now in the other machine that's happily running the W7 load!

The only odd thing on the Zorin is that when I click on the networking icon in the "tray" to add a different AP, nothing pops up. You can just the the top edge of something behind the tray, but not enough to click on. However, a reboot fixes it. Anyone here familiar with Zorin know anything about this behavior?
Family Daily Drivers- T450s, T540p
Work- Sadly, the ThinkPads have gone away...... and replaced by HP Chromebox drone machines :(
ThinkPad Projects- T530, T400, R60, Z60t
Historic Retired ThinkPads- Z61m (Titanium), X20, A31p, 701c, 760XD, WorkPad C505, C500 :bow:

jronald
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Re: My "R60 Project"

#30 Post by jronald » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:23 pm

My only Zorin machine is a Z60t, and it happily does everything I want it to.

Ron
I see in my son's eyes, each day, the wonders I have squandered fortunes to possess and have sought my entire lifetime to attain. jrr 09/2011


T400's and T500's

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