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Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

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Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#1 Post by Puppy » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:08 pm

I am just reading this review http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Ide ... 901.0.html

The important part is Lenovo once again uses an IPS display with a Pentile-RGBW matrix. It leads to reduced sharpness that is clearly visible.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#2 Post by exTPfan » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:42 pm

In their review of the Thinkpad tablet 10, the black value was: .844 cd/m², which is (by far) the worst I've ever seen for an IPS screen.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#3 Post by Medessec » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:17 pm

I think it's that IPS is becoming less of a term, and more of a selling point. I've really been seeing "IPS" a lot more recently... mostly in full-HD midrange Desktop monitors, then Tablets, and now laptops.

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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#4 Post by 600X » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:27 am

Perhaps people shouldn't have been asking for IPS, but instead for higher quality panels based on AFFS.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#5 Post by dr_st » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:44 am

I'd still take any IPS-derivative over any TN-based display any day. :??:
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#6 Post by pianowizard » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:45 am

dr_st wrote:I'd still take any IPS-derivative over any TN-based display any day. :??:
I would think twice before saying that. Perhaps you have only seen premium IPS panels, but I have come across an increasing number of IPS screens with questionable quality. I will talk specifically about viewing angles because that's the IPS feature that I care most about. From my own experience, all IPS monitors and laptop screens 5 - 10 years ago were guaranteed to have extremely wide viewing angles. But recently, I have started to see IPS screens whose viewing angles are rather mediocre and comparable to those of the best TN panels. If these low-end IPS panels were the same price as the best TN panels, then I wouldn't mind, but that's not the case because as Medessec said, the term "IPS" has become a selling point and gives sellers an excuse to charge extra.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#7 Post by dr_st » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:09 pm

I would say that I have actually probably only seen "non-premium IPS panels". The kind that gets put into entry-level IPS monitors these days (this includes all of the DELL Ultrasharp series, except, perhaps the 27"-30" range and even that's not certain). None of these is "premium", as the kind that goes into the high-end graphic designer-oriented Eizo/NEC monitors.

The only thing I have seen is that many newer flavors of IPS (E-IPS, H-IPS or whatever they are sometimes called) have a pretty strong grayish glow when viewed from the side, which leads to contrast loss and worsening of image quality at wide horizontal angles. In this sense they are probably on par with modern high-end TN.

The vertical angles, though, is what has always been the bane of TN, and in this department I have yet to see a TN monitor that comes close to a non-TN, no matter how "premium" the TN, and "entry-level" the non-TN.

Do you remember some of these low-class IPS panels with narrow view angles, and the monitors where they were installed? And what specific deficiencies they had?
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#8 Post by Cigarguy » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:58 pm

That's just crappy. Used to be a time when anything "IPS" was associated with quality but now they've found a way to screw that up too. Love the Flexview screens of older days and I'd still rather have a crappy IPS vs crappy TN. On second thought, in addition to all the other crap Lenovo have done to the Thinkpad brand, I think I'll pass.

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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#9 Post by pianowizard » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:16 pm

dr_st wrote:The kind that gets put into entry-level IPS monitors these days (this includes all of the DELL Ultrasharp series, except, perhaps the 27"-30" range and even that's not certain).
I have been looking at my Dell 3008WFP all day and have to say that as far as viewing angles are concerned, it's only about average among all the IPS screens I've seen. Flanking it are two Lenovo L220x's which, though equipped only with PVA panels, seem actually a little better viewing angle wise.
dr_st wrote:The vertical angles, though, is what has always been the bane of TN, and in this department I have yet to see a TN monitor that comes close to a non-TN, no matter how "premium" the TN, and "entry-level" the non-TN.
My Dell ST2210B (21.5" FHD), which I believe was Dell's cheapest monitor series, has amazing angles when viewed from above, possibly better than for the 3008WFP though I can't compare them side by side since one is at home and the other at work. It (the ST2210B) is far less impressive when viewed from below, but I virtually never look at it from that perspective anyway.
dr_st wrote:Do you remember some of these low-class IPS panels with narrow view angles, and the monitors where they were installed? And what specific deficiencies they had?
Mostly smartphone screens. I like to look at smartphones in local stores and have had this thought many times: "This is really IPS?" But there's one specific laptop that I remember clearly: the Sony 15.6" SE Series.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#10 Post by dr_st » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:09 pm

Smartphones are a slightly different ballgame, if only for the digitizer "touch" layer which often adds distortion. Or at least used to. But I'll make a note to examine the Vaio SE IPS variant if I get a chance. :)
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#11 Post by 600X » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:05 am

dr_st wrote:Do you remember some of these low-class IPS panels with narrow view angles, and the monitors where they were installed? And what specific deficiencies they had?
Definitely smartphones. Especially the cheap Nokia Lumia's. It's not so much about distortion (I have no distortion on my Lumia 630) but the viewing angles are sometimes quite questionable. I have seen TN screens that were better. And the X220 IPS of course, I absolutely hated it, which is why I sold it in the end. The colors were dull and unnatural looking, the viewing angles were mediocre (lower brightness and shift in contrast as well as a grayish-white layer covering the entire screen at certain angles) and outdoor usability was basically non-existent. (my X301 with a crappy TN fairs much better, at a lower brightness of 230 nits)

Apart from my FrankenPad with LG IPS (FlexView) I haven't actually seen any mobile devices with a decent IPS. (not counting smartphones) That is why I strongly prefer AFFS and usually avoid IPS. Even the newer ThinkPads with IPS are nothing to write home about. Only the T440s with AHVA screen is quite good IMO.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#12 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:23 am

Aurora wrote:And the X220 IPS of course, I absolutely hated it, which is why I sold it in the end. The colors were dull and unnatural looking, the viewing angles were mediocre (lower brightness and shift in contrast as well as a grayish-white layer covering the entire screen at certain angles) and outdoor usability was basically non-existent. (my X301 with a crappy TN fairs much better, at a lower brightness of 230 nits)
It's interesting how we can have such diametrically experiences with the same hardware.

The only issue that I have with the X220 IPS panel is the image retention, which is annoying. I found nothing dull / unnatural in the colors, the viewing angles are just fine (the brightness/contrast loss is present, but is not much more pronounced than on the T4x/T6x IPS panels, and the screen itself is much brighter to begin with. The grayish hue may be at certain angles more noticeable than on the old IPS screens, but that's about it.

My coworker who has an X220 with a TN panel, and compared it side-by-side with an X220 IPS, immediately commented on how much better and richer the colors look on the IPS screen.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#13 Post by 600X » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:31 am

Yeah people can have very different perception from one another. When you compared the X220 IPS to the TN, I hope the TN was calibrated. Most people describe IPS displays as having rich colors when compared to TN screens, however, this is merely because of the fact that the calibration on TN screens is often extremely off. (especially color temperature, which causes a bluish cast when it is too high) If you apply a (fitting) color profile to the TN screen then suddenly there will be no difference in color saturation and sometimes the TN screen even has stronger colors.

What really makes a difference is the color space. Colors only pop out when the screen covers a large amount of sRGB, usually around 90%. I made a pic quite a while ago demonstrating how the X220 IPS has no better colors than a crappy X301 TN: https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/840x4 ... 1451iv.jpg
How it covers it is also an important aspect (some colors may be under- or over-saturated), though this is partly the issue of calibration again.

That is also why I love the old FlexView screens. The SXGA+ covers about 80-90% of sRGB. Not the best for absolutely professional users, but more than enough to make colors look rich and pop out, which I think is more than enough for the average user. Both TN and IPS screens can have low or high color space coverage.

My X220 IPS had ghosting as well, but it never bothered me because I hardly ever noticed it. I get the slightly grayish cast on my FlexView as well on some angles, but like you said it is not as strong as on the X220 IPS. The drop in brightness and contrast is not as profound either.

Of course, despite all of this, the viewing angles were still better on the X220 IPS than on the X220 TN, and the black levels were as good for an IPS as anyone could ask for, resulting in a very good contrast. (800:1 IIRC) Those two reasons are usually enough to justifiy the IPS over the TN screen because in the end, you really notice those two factors. But coming from a FlexView (even if it's only the SXGA+) or AFFS screen or perhaps even high end desktop TN for example, I just expected so much more from the X220 IPS, which is why I was so disappointed. The biggest issue to me however were the colors.

There are of course many more factors that contribute to a good screen (like backlight) but going into every single detail seems a bit obsessive. After all, you can't always have everything.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#14 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:57 am

Any chance of getting the color profile for the X301 that you showed?
My daughter has such an X301 and finds the colors a bit dull.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#15 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:01 am

Aurora wrote:When you compared the X220 IPS to the TN, I hope the TN was calibrated. Most people describe IPS displays as having rich colors when compared to TN screens, however, this is merely because of the fact that the calibration on TN screens is often extremely off.
No, it wasn't. Neither was the IPS. I never calibrate any of my screens, and I don't know of anyone who does. People who need color accuracy for their work do so, naturally, but most of us are not like that.

If the average TN screen requires a calibration procedure to look tolerable, whereas the average IPS does not, that in itself is a point in favor of IPS. But it's more than that. As we all know, laptop TN panels tend to be of terrible quality, compared to modern desktop TNs. Their viewing angles are so narrow, that even head-on, different areas of the screen (center versus corners, top/bottom) show different contrast/color shifts. You can't calibrate a screen like that! No matter how accurate a given point is, there will always be other points that do not match.
Aurora wrote:My X220 IPS had ghosting as well, but it never bothered me because I hardly ever noticed it. I get the slightly grayish cast on my FlexView as well on some angles, but like you said it is not as strong as on the X220 IPS. The drop in brightness and contrast is not as profound either.
I believe you are right in this. I did a brief comparison side-by-side of the X220 IPS with my X32 which was custom-fitted with an IPS screen from an X41 Tablet (I think). In two aspects the old panel is better - smaller drop in brightness and lack of color shift at extreme vertical angles. The X220 IPS screen exhibits some yellowing of the whites at such angles, which in some cases even causes apparent inversion of brightness among specific grayscale levels.

However, the new panel is much brighter to start, and has better contrast as well (at least perceived, I didn't measure it), and the color shift happens only at very extreme angles. As such, neither of these is likely to be a serious issue during normal usage patterns.

Bottom line is - I agree with you that the IPS panel on the X220 is probably as low-end as they go. There was never really a question about it. Once you saw that the difference between that and the crappy TNs they use is only $50 when configuring a system, and once you witnessed the atrocious image retention ("ghosting") these panels have and how Lenovo, after consulting with LG, swept it off as a "normal characteristic of the panel" - there was no way one could reasonably hold these panels in high regard as far as IPS panels go. So the other deficiencies are also not surprising.

However, as you say:
Aurora wrote:Of course, despite all of this, the viewing angles were still better on the X220 IPS than on the X220 TN, and the black levels were as good for an IPS as anyone could ask for, resulting in a very good contrast. (800:1 IIRC) Those two reasons are usually enough to justifiy the IPS over the TN screen because in the end, you really notice those two factors.
Precisely! Those two are the things that are immediately obvious to the naked eye, in the most common usage scenarios, even if you only view the display head-on. And in these things, so far, in every laptop/desktop screen I saw, non-TN panels beat TN panels. Which is why I said before that I would still take any IPS, even low-end, over TN, and I still stand by that statement, though of course it's nothing but personal preference. :)
Aurora wrote:But coming from a FlexView (even if it's only the SXGA+) or AFFS screen or perhaps even high end desktop TN for example, I just expected so much more from the X220 IPS, which is why I was so disappointed.
I can understand that as well. Perhaps I had no problem accepting the X220 IPS for what it is, because I had no such expectations. :) When I finally purchased one, at the end of 2013, I had already known about all the issues with these screens, plus I have sufficient experience with lower-end desktop IPS panels as well.

Now that we've had this discussion, I feel like I want to dig deeper. :) One of these days I should do a side-by-side-by-side comparison of my IPS laptops (X32, X220 and T60 SXGA+), and document it with photos. I just need a good choice of benchmarking images, and some help from a friend who has a good camera and knows how to use it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#16 Post by 600X » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:39 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Any chance of getting the color profile for the X301 that you showed?
My daughter has such an X301 and finds the colors a bit dull.
Thanks mucho...
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dr_st wrote: If the average TN screen requires a calibration procedure to look tolerable, whereas the average IPS does not, that in itself is a point in favor of IPS. But it's more than that. As we all know, laptop TN panels tend to be of terrible quality, compared to modern desktop TNs.
In the past I would have agreed, but nowadays color profiles are very easy to come by. notebookcheck.com (.net) provides a color profile for every laptop they review and you can often find color profiles on the net. Or just ask a forum member. Over at the German forum we have a sticky thread that is dedicated to color profiles. I think they have really become quite a common thing. If you are willing to spend a few minutes to find and install one is a different matter though. You can of course resort back to principles and say that something like this is not acceptable, but then again, people don't complain about having to installing drivers to make certain hardware work, so I don't see any reason to complain.

I should also mention that low end IPS screens (like the X220 IPS) also desperately need color profiles. The difference is that low end IPS screens are off in a different way from low end TN screens. So far almost every low end IPS I have seen has a disturbingly strong green tint. Even my FlexView has a horrible green cast, as does the T540p 3k IPS. Additionally, the Gamma is often WAY too low, resulting not only in a seemingly darker picture, but all the details also vanish because dark areas just become totally black. I can't use any of my IPS screens without color profiles either, though I have to admit that I could more easily live with an IPS that has no color profile rather than a TN that has no color profile. So in a way you are right.

Low end TN's are sadly often used in laptops. Back when I switched my X220 screen to an IPS, I swore to myself that I'd only get laptops with IPS screens and better. (despite me being disappointed by the X220 IPS, it was, like I said, still better than the TN) However I kind of derailed from my path. Not long ago though I sold most of my ThinkPads which once again leaves me in the position to try to only acquire laptops with good screens. I've been looking at some gaming laptops recently (I need a decent GPU) and the 15" models often have quite good TN screens. If you look hard enough you usually find something with a good screen and I have seen these high end 15" FHD TN screens, they really are very decent. Even the newer cheaper barebone models (Clevo I think) have the same good TN screens. So if I ever were to get another laptop with TN, it would certainly be a Clevo or similar with a high end TN.
dr_st wrote: Now that we've had this discussion, I feel like I want to dig deeper. :) One of these days I should do a side-by-side-by-side comparison of my IPS laptops (X32, X220 and T60 SXGA+), and document it with photos. I just need a good choice of benchmarking images, and some help from a friend who has a good camera and knows how to use it. :mrgreen:
That would be great. I also have a X30 with X41 Tablet display. It's an AFFS display, not an IPS. The T60 SXGA+ FlexView is an IPS. The BOE Hydis UXGA that many FrankenPads have is a AFFS as well. (can't remember if AFFS or AFFS+)
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#17 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:55 am

Aurora wrote:In the past I would have agreed, but nowadays color profiles are very easy to come by. notebookcheck.com (.net) provides a color profile for every laptop they review and you can often find color profiles on the net. Or just ask a forum member. Over at the German forum we have a sticky thread that is dedicated to color profiles. I think they have really become quite a common thing. If you are willing to spend a few minutes to find and install one is a different matter though. You can of course resort back to principles and say that something like this is not acceptable, but then again, people don't complain about having to installing drivers to make certain hardware work, so I don't see any reason to complain.
I will concede this point. :) I even think Windows Update will download the profile for you, if it can detect the display correctly. But the question is this - is the generic profile good enough? I was under the impression that there is often variation between individual units that warrants specific calibration.
Aurora wrote:That would be great. I also have a X30 with X41 Tablet display. It's an AFFS display, not an IPS. The T60 SXGA+ FlexView is an IPS. The BOE Hydis UXGA that many FrankenPads have is a AFFS as well. (can't remember if AFFS or AFFS+)
Yeah, I wasn't sure if the X41 flavor was also FFS (I know the X6x is). In any case, FFS is a derivative of IPS, and I'm not certain it is really more different than all the other flavors (E-IPS, H-IPS, AH-IPS, etc) to be considered a different technology. ;)
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#18 Post by 600X » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:36 pm

Generic profiles don't change anything. I don't even know why they exist. For the best results you will of course need your own colorimeter, but for the average user that just wants good colors, a color profile created by someone else for the same machine is usually sufficient.

According to http://thinkwiki.de/Displays IPS and AFFS are very similiar but AFFS is still far superior in terms of display quality. I might try to get my hands on a BOE Hydis UXGA in order to examine AFFS a little closer.
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Re: Beware, more crappy IPS displays to come

#19 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:14 am

Aurora wrote:... but for the average user that just wants good colors, a color profile created by someone else for the same machine is usually sufficient.
Indeed. The one that I got from you for my T61's LG WUXGA panel (and am looking at right now) is perfectly fine for daily use, and I'm somewhat picky when it comes to stuff like that.
According to http://thinkwiki.de/Displays IPS and AFFS are very similiar but AFFS is still far superior in terms of display quality. I might try to get my hands on a BOE Hydis UXGA in order to examine AFFS a little closer.
The best CCFL-lit Hydis display is the one that was used on the SXGA+ X60T IMO. That's one heck of a beautiful screen. I always found the UXGA ones seen on T60p (and some very late T43p units) to be on the cold side when compared to the ID Tech ones.
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