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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Bill, Could you explain us why do you pretend the Edge Series doesn´t belong to the Thinkpad family when it bears the brand on its lid and palmrest, and has its main characteristics? Excellent Keyboard, trackpoint and all the Thinkvantage tools to back it up? Does a cosmetic design change makes it unable to belong to the Thinkpad heaven?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:59 pm 
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This thread could turn into a religious debate :-)

Anyway, although personally I don't think an Edge is a "proper" Thinkpad, it is a bit odd to see this sub-forum under the non-Thinkpad forum, given that the x100e is under the "proper" Thinkpad forum. I fail to see under what objective criteria the x100e is a proper Thinkpad whereas the Edge isn't. If we anticipate that Lenovo is going to further extend (or dilute, depending on your beliefs) the Thinkpad brand, I would think the litmus test is simply whether Lenovo sticks the Thinkpad logo on a machine or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:35 pm 
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rleo25 wrote:
Bill, Could you explain us why do you pretend the Edge Series doesn´t belong to the Thinkpad family when it bears the brand on its lid and palmrest


I put it here because this is where I think it belongs.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:37 pm 
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rleo25 wrote:
Does a cosmetic design change makes it unable to belong to the Thinkpad heaven?


No.

The heavy use of cheaper, less-durable materials, the lack of a roll-cage, the cheaper components, the inferior Linux support, the glossy finish, and clear targeting of the consumer, rather than professional markets come together to make it what it is: a grown-up IdeaPad.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:33 am 
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ThinkRob wrote:
The heavy use of cheaper, less-durable materials, the lack of a roll-cage, the cheaper components
This describes most of the Thinkpads nowadays. With the rest of your points I agree.

JaneL wrote:
I put it here because this is where I think it belongs.
Indeed that is the case, and I am glad that you do not attempt to hide the fact that the decision was based on your personal opinion (which is totally okay, as long as it is open and honest).

indotoonster wrote:
This thread could turn into a religious debate
One can argue to death about how the forums should be divided into categories, and how the models should be further divided into subforums, and whether this particular laptop should be here or there. I just prefer to view the division as half-arbitrary as it is anyways, reflecting popularity among users and historical separation between the series and their naming, rather than any objective reality.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:21 am 
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How is it though that the SL series is more of a Thinkpad than the Edge?

Perhaps this would have been better labelled an Ideapad but the Ideapad would not have a trackpoint and that fact alone would make me have zero interest in it. No offense but I think this indirect mocking of the model seems just a tad childish. Dont get me wrong though, I have worked on thinkpads for quite a number of years and I totally appreciate their ruggedness and durability and I would understand how some hate to see the thinkpad name tarnished by cheap wannabes. I have witnessed many SLs as well as R50s fail prematurely for a thinkpad brand. It makes it hard for some to know which thinkpads are the real deal, and which are just riding on the name, but fanboyism just isn't very mature.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:44 am 
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parsona wrote:
No offense but I think this indirect mocking of the model seems just a tad childish..... but fanboyism just isn't very mature.


You're new around here, aren't you?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:51 am 
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JaneL wrote:

You're new around here, aren't you?


Yes, I think that is pretty obvious. If I'm not welcome here, do let me know, no need to throw a rather pointless line.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:26 am 
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parsona wrote:
Yes, I think that is pretty obvious. If I'm not welcome here, do let me know, no need to throw a rather pointless line.


It's not a matter of not being welcome. It's a matter of coming into an established forum and throwing around accusations of childishness, fanboyism and immaturity about an admin.

:BAAAD!:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:20 am 
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Sorry to have launched this discussion, but I was curious about your editorial criteria and certain inconsistencies found here, and now I have it clear... you are the page owner and you do whatever you feel appropiate. Thank you. I will keep using the forum because it is an important channel to comunicate with Thinkpad users arround the world no matter the subjective approach sometimes used by emotional users... have a good day and take it easy... things change, the world evolves...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:38 am 
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rleo25 wrote:
Sorry to have launched this discussion, but I was curious about your editorial criteria and certain inconsistencies found here, and now I have it clear... you are the page owner and you do whatever you feel appropiate.


Well, I'm not the forum owner, Bill is. However this has always been a privately owned forum subject to the opinions of Bill and his admin and mod teams. Was there really any doubt about that? I don't think we signed a pledge to always be objective in our views of how Lenovo conducts their business.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:33 pm 
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ThinkRob wrote:

No.

The heavy use of cheaper, less-durable materials, the lack of a roll-cage, the cheaper components, the inferior Linux support, the glossy finish, and clear targeting of the consumer, rather than professional markets come together to make it what it is: a grown-up IdeaPad.



heavy use of less durable materials? like what? its the same plastic and metal in all the thinkpads.

the 'roll cage' in general is crap. the edge has less body flex then MOST of the thinkpads that do have a roll cage. and ive worked on hundreds of them.

the components are options, the wireless card is the only thing with sub par linux support. they should all have good linux support, they are standard off the shelf components.

again, its an OPTIONAL glossy finish.

you guys would all fit in perfect with henry ford, any color you want, as long as its the same one weve had for the last 100 years.

NOTE: you forgot to mention the glossy screen.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Zedicus wrote:
you guys would all fit in perfect with henry ford, any color you want, as long as its the same one weve had for the last 100 years.
Yup! And for the same reason, if it was up to me, I would have put X100 off the ThinkPad section too 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Zedicus wrote:
the 'roll cage' in general is crap. the edge has less body flex then MOST of the thinkpads that do have a roll cage. and ive worked on hundreds of them.


Perhaps. But in that case I can't help but wonder why the T(4|5)00 don't suffer from the same motherboard flex that killed the T4x series. I don't think there's any debate over which series has more rigid body plastics...

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the components are options, the wireless card is the only thing with sub par linux support. they should all have good linux support, they are standard off the shelf components.


The wireless card and the AMD GPU have inferior Linux support, yes. For a notebook, those are very important items.

Quote:
again, its an OPTIONAL glossy finish.


Again, it's not any individual point that makes it not a ThinkPad, but rather the combination thereof.

Quote:
you guys would all fit in perfect with henry ford, any color you want, as long as its the same one weve had for the last 100 years.

NOTE: you forgot to mention the glossy screen.


You're right. That's another reason why it shouldn't be considered a real ThinkPad.

I think the Ford comment is quite accurate. For a long time, IBM (and, to some extent) Lenovo built their reputation on exactly that principle: a reliable, consistent, non-frills business-oriented machine. That meant things like a durable chassis and good engineering, yes, but it also meant things like a 'business-formal' design: clean lines, plain colors, and no gaudy, flashy finishes. Lenovo's changed some of that, and the Edge is the first machine to completely rid itself of the professional look of past ThinkPads in favor of a "trendy" high-gloss design.

It's as if Rolls Royce suddenly started producing cars with chromed spinning rims and neon under-lights: aficionados would be justified in protesting the change and understandably might be a little miffed if someone tried to tell them to stop worrying and just accept it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:02 am 
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Calm down Thinkpad fans, to avoid subjectiveness I suggest you accept the Lenovo´s brand naming policy, Edge is indeed a low entry Thinkpad (It sounds strange speaking of a low entry when you think of the best in the class laptops however). I have been using Thinkpads since 2004 and to me this is a Thinkpad.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:13 pm 
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...to me this is a Thinkpad
Isn't that all that should matter?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:46 pm 
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And BTW, for those who might be wondering, the W series subforum seems to be named in the same spirit ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:47 am 
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rleo25 wrote:
Edge is indeed a low entry Thinkpad (It sounds strange speaking of a low entry when you think of the best in the class laptops however). I have been using Thinkpads since 2004 and to me this is a Thinkpad.


I think the saddest thing for me is that it seems like the Thinkpad name is being slapped on "other" systems simply in an effort to promote them. There was a time when I could tell someone that if they got a Thinkpad they would be getting a very good quality laptop, but now I have to make sure I mention the series so they don't go off and buy an SL system or EDGE and then think they got a proffessional business machine that is going to carry on the Thinkpad Legend.

Some have said that the EDGE has the same plastics as the rest of the Thinkpad's and I would like to know if this is REALLY true! - and if it is I would like to know how it is that the EDGE sells for a fraction of the price than the T series sells for and yet it's supposedly as good quality wise?!?

I would also like to know more about the SL series as all the experience I have from having used two SL500's was just downright disappointing - being that I was supposedly working on the Thinkpad ... not saying they are "bad" quality ... but they are branded as Thinkpad's!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:49 am 
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zetheroo wrote:
Some have said that the EDGE has the same plastics as the rest of the Thinkpad's and I would like to know if this is REALLY true! - and if it is I would like to know how it is that the EDGE sells for a fraction of the price than the T series sells for and yet it's supposedly as good quality wise?!?

Looking at the Lenovo US online store, the Edge series starts at $579, The T410 at $829. That makes the T series about 40% more expensive to start.

On the other hand, when you compare the prices current T series to the prices of the same series some 5 years ago, you'll find that older machines were about 100% more expensive or more than that (also consider that $1 today is worth less than $1 5 years ago.)

Draw your own conclusions.

zetheroo wrote:
I would also like to know more about the SL series as all the experience I have from having used two SL500's was just downright disappointing
I'm curious to find out what was it that disappointed you about them. I never owned an SL, so it's interesting to me how they compare.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:25 pm 
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zetheroo wrote:
Some have said that the EDGE has the same plastics as the rest of the Thinkpad's and I would like to know if this is REALLY true!


According to slbook:

    The Edge case - Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS) plastic

According to tabook:

    ThinkPad T410 case - Top: High Elasticity PolyCarbonate (HEPC); Bottom: Carbon-Fiber Reinforced Plastic
    ThinkPad T510/W510 case - Display cover: Glass-fiber reinforced plastic; Base: Carbon-fiber reinforced plastic
    ThinkPad W701 case - Top: magnesium alloy; Bottom: Polycarbonate/Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (PC/ABS) plastic
    ThinkPad X201/X201i case - Material: magnesium alloy
    ThinkPad X201s case - Display cover: Carbon-fiber reinforced plastic (top), glass-fiber reinforced plastic (side walls); Base: Magnesium alloy
    ThinkPad X201 tablet case - Material: magnesium alloy

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:35 pm 
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dr_st wrote:
I'm curious to find out what was it that disappointed you about them. I never owned an SL, so it's interesting to me how they compare.


Where do I begin ...

I think the first thing I noticed was the lack of clips on the lid (used when opening and closing the lid). I always counted on that solid "click" being heard when I shut my laptop lid ...

Then there was no ThinkLight!!! And what about the keyboard ... why did the layout have to change? Found out after a bit of Googling that the SL series does not have the rollcage either. Palmrest has more "give" when pressure is applied and screen has heaps of flex.

But probably more than anything else was the overall feeling that this unit was designed with "cosmetics" in mind rather than "functionality", such as the stupid red blinking light on the logo ... and then not having a ThinkLight!

To me this was just a re-badged Lenovo G530 or something .. and to be honest I almost liked the G530 over the SL500 ... argh ... has it come to this!? - I guess it has! :?

Is this series in existence just so that businesses in developing nations can afford to buy the "Thinkpad" name? I think so ..

I would like to know why the SL series is in the "Thinkpad" area of this forum, and yet the EDGE is not ... !?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:42 am 
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Indeed the lack of Thinklight and changed keyboard layout can be a big issue to someone who relies on these. In my case, for instance, the Thinklight is a non-issue, since I never use it on any laptop, but the keyboard layout would be a very big deal...

Overall, the build quality and materials used in SL are not the same standards as in the more expensive T/X series (they use the same ABS Plastic as the edge). And it does affect the price.

But to be completely fair to the SL series you have to keep in mind the following points:

* Not all Thinkpads have Thinklight (some of the tablets don't)
* Not all Thinkpads have a rollcage (the small ones don't, and the concept itself was introduced in the T60/Z60, not before).
* The LCD on the SL500 flexes less than the 14" T series, that's a fact I've actually verified (although more than the 15" T series with a thicker lid, excluding the new T510).
* The keyboard on the SL500, while having a subpar (IMO) layout, feels more solid than what they used to put on the T400/T500 (when they redesigned the keyboard and removed most of the backplate support, which caused heaps of complaints).
* The SL does have the trackpoint, which to me is the biggest Thinkpad trademark, and one that distinguishes the laptop very well from 95% of the consumer machines.
* Personally I don't object to having someone think of aesthetics as part of the design. While I don't find the blinking red dot appealing, I did find the overall looks of the SL series far more pleasing that the general ugliness of the contemporary T, R and to a lesser extent X series. (talking about T/R400/500 and X200, situation seems to have improved drastically with T410/510).

And also, with all of the shortcomings, one should not forget the fact that the cheap, "sub-par" SL series have an HDMI port. A fully working (audio included) HDMI port, which is much better than the far less ubiquitous (and also crippled - no audio support) DisplayPort they put on the T500 (T400 didn't even have that, only on the dock). So with the SL400/500 you got a machine that could, without any external equipment, be connected to any standard digital LCD / TV system. A pretty big advantage in today's world. With the more expensive T400/500 and even W you got stuck without any ability to output digital audio whatsoever in any form.

And, yes, I am aware of the standard response that "Thinkpads are business machines, bla-bla, HDMI is a consumer standard, yadda, yadda, DisplayPort is far better (it isn't), Thinkpads are not for watching movies, etc.". I just don't buy it. And apparently enough people didn't buy it (some of them actually people who use digital audio for work), that Lenovo has eventually caught up with the industry standard and put a DisplayPort with working audio on the new 410/510 series. It's about time. :)

So forgive me for this long rant in the defense of the SL series, but I do feel that it is often being overlooked for no good reason. Or more precisely, has been - because the new SL410/SL510 I like much less than the SL400/SL500 (due to the glossy screen, lack of higher resolutions and 16:9 ratio).

Finally, to answer the question:

Quote:
I would like to know why the SL series is in the "Thinkpad" area of this forum, and yet the EDGE is not ... !?

Short answer - because the administration decided so, and that's what counts. Now as to why they decided so? My guess - the colorful lid and chiclet keyboard was too much of a deviation from the traditional design (the SL is more standard in this sense).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:34 am 
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dr_st wrote:
Indeed the lack of Thinklight and changed keyboard layout can be a big issue to someone who relies on these. In my case, for instance, the Thinklight is a non-issue, since I never use it on any laptop, but the keyboard layout would be a very big deal..


I use the Thinklight daily ... especially on my X31 which moves everywhere with me .. hehe

Quote:
Short answer - because the administration decided so, and that's what counts.


And I am totally cool with that ... this is a great forum! :D

Still, it all boils down to me never (willingly) buying an SL series Thinkpad. - But that's just me ... :P

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:08 pm 
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The discussion on this issue sort of clarifies why IBM sold the entire PC division to Lenovo. IBM wasn´t able to downgrade its product lines to face the new market trends in wich personal computers were entering as commodities. (Perhaps there remain a secret division to manufacure expensive laptops to their richest corporative clients who pay yearly acconts for several thousand millions ... )


Last edited by rleo25 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:28 pm 
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rleo25 wrote:
The discussion on this issue clarifies me why in a certain way why IBM sold the entire PC division to Lenovo. IBM wasn´t able to downgrade its products lines to face the new market trends in wich personal computers were entering as commodities.
:thumbs-UP: :Nice:

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:17 am 
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Sorry I'm so late but it seems the T400 and T410 can also be considered "non thinkpads" due to the lack of colored keyboards found POST classic century series and lack of "roll cage" (Puckey, the T43 did not have a "roll cage" as with the T410! The lid is as durable.)

PS: Touched an Edge at Microcenter, felt like a Thinkpad but with design elements for the mainstream audience, a few changes (Sharp corners, keyboard, latch) would make it every bit much of a Thinkpad as a T30 is a Thinkpad. Heck the X100e is as much as a Thinkpad as a T43 is a Thinkpad.

Anyways, I don't see what the problem is here seeing *all* Thinkpads, even the ones people don't think are "qualified" to be Thinkpads can still beat all the consumerite machines (HP, Dell, Apple, Sony, etc) as well as the X100e, Edge and SL/L series being able to beat other "business"/"prosumer" laptops.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Location: Ann Arbor, MI
I was at Best Buy today and played with a "Thinkpad" Edge. I completely agree with the admins that this really shouldn't be considered a Thinkpad. At this store, it was put in between two consumer-grade laptops (one Toshiba and one Asus) and the Edge clearly had a similar, non-business desgin. It's also not very well-built -- both the Toshiba and the Asus felt sturdier -- although that's NOT why I don't consider it a real Thinkpad.

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