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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:45 pm 
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ajkula66 wrote:
If you deem the transition from a 7-row to a 6-row keyboard to be a purely aesthetical one, good for you.

For quite a few folks around here, that is a productivity issue.

Yeah, there are valid concerns, like how removing the 7th row may impede productivity. Unfortunately, for each informative post, there are 17 more along the lines of:
"Oh noes chiclets are here we are doomed!"
"Screw this I'm going Apple/HP/Dell/Whatever!"
"Bye bye ThinkPads you're no longer cool"
. . . .

:jhem:

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Well, let me put it this way:

I've used Panasonic CF-R4 as my travel machine for quite some time, and its chiclet keys didn't bother me all that much. Now, the reason why I loved (and still do) these baby ToughBooks (pseudo-ToughBooks, really) was the fact that it had a 10.4" XGA screen of decent quality, extraordinary battery life and weighed about 2lbs. No ThinkPad compared at the time. The machine sported an ULV Dothan and was pretty snappy in basic use.

Now, although there's no doubt in my mind that Lenovo will come out with a 6-row chiclet which will be vastly superior to any other 6-row chiclet, what else do they have to offer?

HP has workstation-class notebooks with IPS screens. Very impressive machines, short of keyboard, of course.

W520 has an excellent conventional keyboard, but its screen is vastly inferior to HP's in my not-so-modest opinion.

Once Lenovo kills the traditional ThinkPad keyboard, my next stop - if I buy another laptop at all - will be an EliteBook.

For me personally, the proposed keyboard design will be the (enormous) straw that broke this old camel's back.

My $0.02 only...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:49 am 
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twistero wrote:
Yeah, there are valid concerns, like how removing the 7th row may impede productivity. Unfortunately, for each informative post, there are 17 more along the lines of:
"Oh noes chiclets are here we are doomed!"
"Screw this I'm going Apple/HP/Dell/Whatever!"
"Bye bye ThinkPads you're no longer cool"
. . . .

:jhem:


Thanks for understanding my point. These are pretty much my exact thoughts. I understand that for some the lack of a 7th row is an impingement on productivity--but those thoughts seem to be overwhelmed by the sentiments expressed above.

For me, I'd rather trade the 7th row (which I almost never use) for a larger palm rests and touch pad that's more accommodating to two-finger gestures. I also prefer the layout of the new top row versus the older one. That said, I certainly understand that not everyone feels that way, and that folks have different priorities, as those are certainly legitimate concerns; but bashing the keyboard because it doesn't fit the retro-ironic aesthetic (as many have done and continue to do) is a bit silly to me, and goes against what I view as the "real" Thinkpad standard of form over function. I do miss the lack of a page back/forward button on the Edge keyboard, but for me the increase in typing speed and accuracy is worth the trade-off. Again, I certainly respect that folks have different needs. Most of my work on the computer involves a lot of typing, so for me the new keyboard is a big winner.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:27 am 
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twistero wrote:
Yeah, there are valid concerns, like how removing the 7th row may impede productivity. Unfortunately, for each informative post, there are 17 more along the lines of:


If you ponder over it for a second, I think you will find that the general internet ratio between useful informative posts and random nonsense is actually far worse than 1:17. Why is that surprising?

If one does not have the skill of sifting useful information from random junk, I think that one will find the internet a very frustrating place as a whole.

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Last edited by dr_st on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:03 am 
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Jack Watts wrote:
... but bashing the keyboard because it doesn't fit the retro-ironic aesthetic (as many have done and continue to do) is a bit silly to me, and goes against what I view as the "real" Thinkpad standard of form over function. ...

Calling a long term tradition of quality and a proven work tool "retro-ironic aesthetic(s)" is kind of an insult.
If you like huge touch pads for gestures, thats your choice, fine, but that is not a direct continuation of the Thinkpad standards,
which are an trusty tool for work including an exceptional typing experience.

To articulate myself in detail, this implies a focus on typing, reading and mobility.
Touch pad gestures or wide screen format are hardly helpful for real day to day work.

What many users do complain about is, that we can't buy the good old stuff any more.
Many product changes are introduced and quality is declining, and the new keyboards are radically different
from what we where happy with for years.

If Lenovo would maintain a model line featuring "the good and trusted qualities", they would get all the critics off their backs, practically over night.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:29 am 
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lophiomys wrote:
Calling a long term tradition of quality and a proven work tool "retro-ironic aesthetic(s)" is kind of an insult.
If you like huge touch pads for gestures, thats your choice, fine, but that is not a direct continuation of the Thinkpad standards,
which are an trusty tool for work including an exceptional typing experience.


Well, I see it that way when many (not all) folks are complaining about the new keyboard based only on its design versus performance. As far as touchpads, that's a different kettle of fish--but modern touchpads implemented correctly enable "higher productivity", so again this is a matter of maintaining a certain aesthetic versus function. And I say this as someone who's been using both the pad and the stick for a very long time.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:59 am 
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If ain't broke, don't fix it.
End of discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:12 am 
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twistero wrote:
Unfortunately, for each informative post, there are 17 more along the lines of:
"Oh noes chiclets are here we are doomed!"
"Screw this I'm going Apple/HP/Dell/Whatever!"
"Bye bye ThinkPads you're no longer cool"


But keep in mind that some of the folks who made those 17 posts had already explained their complaints many times in numerous other threads. It's boring to repeat oneself excessively.

IMO, chiclet keyboards do look a bit prettier and more "modern" than traditional keyboards, but traditional keyboards are slightly easier to type on. To have the best of both worlds, some of the Dell Latitudes have traditional keyboards with chiclet-like keys. Clever!

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:19 am 
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Quote:
"Screw this I'm going Apple/HP/Dell/Whatever!"
"Bye bye ThinkPads you're no longer cool"

Hehe, try to seek for really classic keyboards on other brands. You wont find one. :roll: There is no for classic-keyboard fans escape. Well, they can use their older ThinkPads some years by now, but what happens then? :P

I think this is a smart move of Lenovo, because the new keyboard from the X1 is in my opinion superior. There is no better keyboard in the market, it cant be beaten, it is even better than the Thai-NMB Keyboard in my R50e. I dont miss the 7th row on my L520 because I never used the keys there. I hope Lenovo did a good work with the newest keyboard. The X1 keyboard is simply the best they have ever done (well, I dont know the 600x keyboard). You must remember that the X1 was a test platform for new features and the business-customers must be very impressed of the new keyboard. Times are changing, accept that or not.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:31 am 
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Ibthink wrote:

Quote:
You must remember that the X1 was a test platform for new features and the business-customers must be very impressed of the new keyboard.


Huh...no.

Lenovo has stopped catering to business customers a long time ago...and is slowly but surely turning ThinkPads into consumer-grade laptops... :roll:

While the current ThinkPad palette (*20) might overall be the best one we've seen in quite some time, the next generation is not likely to keep up with that standard...not with the proposed keyboard layout anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:35 am 
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dr_st wrote:
If you ponder over it for a second, I think you will find that the general internet ratio between useful informative posts and random nonsense is actually far worse than 1:17. Why is that surprising?

If one does not have the skill of sifting useful information from random junk, I think that one will find the internet a very frustrating place as a whole.


It's not surprising at all. All I'm saying is, since people like to rant, I might rant a little bit about their rant too. (Metarant anyone?)

pianowizard wrote:
But keep in mind that some of the folks who made those 17 posts had already explained their complaints many times in numerous other threads. It's boring to repeat oneself excessivel


IMHO it's boring to have 17 threads out there about this exact same topic, to the point where people are too tired to repeat themselves.

Ibthink wrote:
Hehe, try to seek for really classic keyboards on other brands. You wont find one. :roll: There is no for classic-keyboard fans escape. Well, they can use their older ThinkPads some years by now, but what happens then? :P


That's part of why I'm upset about all this. Some people are saying "ThinkPads doesn't have superior keyboards anymore, so I'm moving to brands that have even crappier keyboard." This. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:46 am 
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twistero wrote:

Quote:
Some people are saying "ThinkPads doesn't have superior keyboards anymore, so I'm moving to brands that have even crappier keyboard." This. Doesn't. Make. Sense.


Maybe not to you but...

a) If I have to use a crappy keyboard there's no reason for me to own a ThinkPad in the first place. The keyboard - apart from many fine memories that are not going anywhere anyway - is about the only thing that I find somewhat attractive on the current (*20) lineup.

b) Some of the brands that offer crappier keyboards offer superior screens, such as Dell and HP.

We can still vote with our wallets...I know I will...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:50 am 
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twistero wrote:
Some people are saying "ThinkPads doesn't have superior keyboards anymore, so I'm moving to brands that have even crappier keyboard." This. Doesn't. Make. Sense.


As people have been trying to explain, other brands are superior to Thinkpads in other ways, even though they have crappier keyboards. When Thinkpads still use traditional keyboards, on the whole, they are still better than other brands. However, after all Thinkpads have adopted chiclet, on the whole, they will become less appealing than other brands, and so these people will move to other brands.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:04 am 
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Its funny how whenever functions get removed, there's always people who say, "I never used it anyways" "I never use print screen (sure)“ "I never use scr lock" "I never use thinklights", "i never use lid latches" Keep lying to yourself folks.

Its amazing how some people will justify change at the expensive of functionality.
You never make change for the sake of change alone, that's common sense.
You definitely don't change for the sake of coolness. And by coolness they mean the metrosexual Mac generation cool, which by my definition is not cool to begin with.

So, all these changes that some of you are defending exist not for functionality, but rather for fashion, and misguided fashion at that. Removing functionality for the sake of metrosexual style is not justifiable in my books.

Even if I only use print screen once every 2 years, I want that button there.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:07 am 
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pianowizard wrote:
As people have been trying to explain


Where? I've seen no such thing until very recently.
Don't get me wrong, your explanation (and ajkula66's) are perfectly valid, and I now understand your take on the matter.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:34 am 
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ajkula66 wrote:
Lenovo has stopped catering to business customers a long time ago...and is slowly but surely turning ThinkPads into consumer-grade laptops... :roll:
To be fair, one must not forget that many of the Thinkpad business customers, namely US government and related institutions, made a conscious decision to ditch the brand from reasons non-technical much earlier than any Lenovo-influenced designs came to pass... :?

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:41 am 
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Yeah, but in return every company in China switched over to Thinkpads.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:42 am 
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Quote:
b) Some of the brands that offer crappier keyboards offer superior screens, such as Dell and HP.

But only on 15" models. And the 15,6" HD+ and FHD Lenovo screen are very good too. But Dell and HP are not offering IPS Displays on their 12" models (at least here in Europe).

Quote:
"I never use scr lock" "I never use thinklights"

I never used this functions, that is true (I never sit in dark environments at home, so I didn´t use the ThikLight very often on my old R60. Beside of that, Backlight will replace the ThinkLight ). Lid latch is nice, but not soo important for me, because I use my L520 mainly at home.

Quote:
"I never use print screen (sure)“

I use print screen sometimes, that is right. But print screen is there on the new layout. It is near to the AltGr-key and the right Ctrl-key. You can see it here: http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/ ... c210df.jpg (print screen is "Druck" on german keyboards)

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Ibthink wrote:

Quote:
But only on 15" models. And the 15,6" HD+ and FHD Lenovo screen are very good too. But Dell and HP are not offering IPS Displays on their 12" models (at least here in Europe).


This is true...however, I'm not looking to replace my SXGA+ X60 tablet which is perfectly capable of just about any and every "on the go" function that I might throw at it. The lack of ThinkLight is the only thing I seriously despise on this little guy...well, apart from Windows key, that is... 8)

I'm far more interested in a desktop-replacement variety - as I always have been - and unless Lenovo makes a seismic shift when it comes to screens on full-size units, there's really not much for me to look into right now...change the keyboard and there will be nothing at all left for this old ThinkPadder...

dr_st wrote:

Quote:
To be fair, one must not forget that many of the Thinkpad business customers, namely US government and related institutions, made a conscious decision to ditch the brand from reasons non-technical much earlier than any Lenovo-influenced designs came to pass... :?


Agreed wholeheartedly. That being said, a revenge of sorts on the remaining loyal customer base is an interesting strategy to say the very least...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:21 pm 
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ajkula66 wrote:
a) If I have to use a crappy keyboard there's no reason for me to own a ThinkPad in the first place.


why do you think the keyboard is "crappy"? I guess this is the crux of the issue for me. I've actually used it, and IMO it's much nicer to type on than my T61. As I see it, this isn't "change for the sake of change", it's a better keyboard.

Kaze22 wrote:

Even if I only use print screen once every 2 years, I want that button there.


On a 12" or 14" laptop? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. This isn't a desktop, and space is limited. Keys which are seldom used take up real estate. Particularly for the X220/230, ditching the top row makes sense to me from an ergonomic standpoint. I'd much rather have that room in the palm rest (and yes, the touch pad--which I know makes me a Thinkpad heretic). This has nothing to do with "coolness" or my metrosexuality...it's strictly about function in my book.

BTW, I find the Apple comparisons funny. Has anyone ever actually typed on a MBP? Besides the 3rd degree burns if you actually have it in your lap, the keyboard is absolute garbage to type on. So, I understand the reticence that people have because it's a chiclet keyboard. That said, I've read very few negative reports (and a lot of positive ones) from folks who've actually used the keyboard.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Jack Watts wrote:

Quote:
why do you think the keyboard is "crappy"? I guess this is the crux of the issue for me.


Let me word it in no uncertain terms: *any* and *every* keyboard with such a layout is crappy in my book. Period.

I'm far more likely to accept a similar (even if inferior in quality) keyboard from Panasonic or HP who had their prospective layouts for a long time, in exchange for some features that I can't find on a ThinkPad...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Jack Watts wrote:
why do you think the keyboard is "crappy"?
The keyboard isn't crappy (yes, I've used one, very briefly). The layout, in my opinion, is worse. But the point is not even how good or bad it is. The point is that once it's changed, it means that Thinkpads have lost one more thing which made them unique. And once you are not unique, then it's a much harder fight against competition.

I can say (and have said in the past) that the keyboard layout and the trackpoint are the only two things that kept me "loyal" to Thinkpads in the past few years. Now with the keyboard layout gone there's only the trackpoint (which is somewhat better than that of competing models). How long till that advantage is lost too?

Jack Watts wrote:
On a 12" or 14" laptop? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. This isn't a desktop, and space is limited.
This makes perfect sense, and it has been this way for ages and worked perfectly.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Quote:
The point is that once it's changed, it means that Thinkpads have lost one more thing which made them unique.

Yes, but in the past (ca. 5 years ago) that was something not-unique to, when the other manufactures had classic layouts too.

Quote:
This makes perfect sense, and it has been this way for ages and worked perfectly.

Yes, and I think it is good that Lenovo will keep the print screen key.

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Ibthink wrote:

Quote:
Yes, but in the past (ca. 5 years ago) that was something not-unique to, when the other manufactures had classic layouts too.


Not really. I believe that ThinkPads were the only ones with a 7-row keyboard for quite some time...

This is *the* classic ThinkPad keyboard:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keyboard-for-IB ... 4844c1a151

This is the closest you'll come to from HP, and that is from a 7-8 year old model:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-COMPAQ-NC623 ... 19d004c178

This is Panasonic:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Panason ... 3a734636c3

So while chiclet keyboards and their pros and cons may indeed be debatable, the layout is *vastly* different from any of the previous full-blown ThinkPads...which were very different from competitors' ones even then...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Jack Watts wrote:
why do you think the keyboard is "crappy"? I guess this is the crux of the issue for me. I've actually used it, and IMO it's much nicer to type on than my T61. As I see it, this isn't "change for the sake of change", it's a better keyboard.


We've explained this multiple times - we're mostly distressed over losing the classic layout (yes, ThinkRob, I know it's been refined and changed over the years). Some of us have been using ThinkPads for nearly 20 years. Such an abrupt shift in the keyboard we know and love is disconcerting and maddening. I, for one, already have a 6-row keyboard on another system from HP. I already know I don't like that. I don't have to wait to see how I like a 6-row ThinkPad. The keys will be in the wrong place for me.

New member, joined and is only posting in one thread and badgering long-time forum members about their choices. You're beginning to smell like a troll to me...

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:38 pm
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Location: Vancouver, Canada
Some people don't realize that when you change the location and layout of buttons, it messes with your Mojo and you can't type properly.
I tried using a French Thinkpad keyboard once, because I was pretty sure I could adjust. I never adjusted, ended up being a waste of time to even try.

Even if you change the layout of the keys just slightly like from English to French, you lose your ability to be productive.
So, a complete different layout will be devastating to anyone who does actual typing. This was one of main reasons why I didn't sell my X301 for an X1 a year ago. It would have cost me nothing at the time to switch over as the sale would have covered my purchase. But the chiclet Keyboard was not something I wanted to adjust to, considering I do all my typing on my X301.

i know that Macbook users don't really type, but Thinkpad users do. (joking)

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Kaze22 wrote:
Some people don't realize that when you change the location and layout of buttons, it messes with your Mojo and you can't type properly.
I tried using a French Thinkpad keyboard once, because I was pretty sure I could adjust. I never adjusted, ended up being a waste of time to even try.


I actually have an opposite experience, since I use two vastly different layouts (US English and Slovenian) on daily basis, but both are conventional ThinkPad keyboards. I'd venture a guess that the key here is the following fact: when I type in English, I think in English and my fingers follow my thoughts. When I type in languages that correspond to Slovenian-keyboard-layout, the English in my head gets shut off and I'm back in the Balkans...

The fact that I've been doing this on and off for decades, using other keyboard layouts as I moved around the globe probably helps...but let's not forget that the top row/block is the same on US and Slovenian ThinkPad layouts as well...

Now, getting used to Panasonic's Japanese/U.S. keyboard was a headache and then some...but then again, I don't speak Japanese let alone type in it...

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Cheers,

George (your grouchy retired FlexView farmer)

Running Linux while collecting SSDI: A31p, T42p, T43pSF

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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:08 pm 
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I concur with JaneL and the others. FWIW, see my post in viewtopic.php?f=12&t=103398, which elaborates why I feel the same way.

I am unapologetically getting old. The longer you live, the more attuned you become to things that have true value and things that are merely fashion trends. I haven't used one of the new keyboards, so I ultimately have to reserve judgement, but it feels like the latter.

It reminds me of my bicycle. When I grew up in the 70s, my bike had 3 gears, a dynamo and a clamp for luggage. That was a common type back then. When I bought a new bike some years ago, I instead got one with 21 gears, separate LED lights and elastic bands for the luggage. That's what's commonly sold here now. Progress? Not really. Having that many gears in the city is a waste and I feel I'm merely carrying around dead weight. The new LED lights are ineffective, because they're quite dim from an angle. Annoyingly you also have to dismount them, and the elastic bands, when you park your bike, otherwise they get stolen. And the valves on the tyres are the most elaborate, over-engineered, time-wasting design I have ever seen. If it meant you never lose any air, that would be fine, but they're no improvement in that regard.

You might say I should have looked longer for the right bike and that's true. But it's also getting really hard to find any bike that has a dynamo or is suitable for fitting one, for example. Bit like finding a laptop with a decent keyboard and a decent screen.


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA
FragrantHead wrote:
I concur with JaneL and the others. FWIW, see my post in viewtopic.php?f=12&t=103398, which elaborates why I feel the same way.


It reminds me of my bicycle. When I grew up in the 70s, my bike had 3 gears, a dynamo and a clamp for luggage. That was a common type back then. When I bought a new bike some years ago, I instead got one with 21 gears, separate LED lights and elastic bands for the luggage. That's what's commonly sold here now. Progress? Not really. Having that many gears in the city is a waste and I feel I'm merely carrying around dead weight. The new LED lights are ineffective, because they're quite dim from an angle. Annoyingly you also have to dismount them, and the elastic bands, when you park your bike, otherwise they get stolen. And the valves on the tyres are the most elaborate, over-engineered, time-wasting design I have ever seen. If it meant you never lose any air, that would be fine, but they're no improvement in that regard.

You might say I should have looked longer for the right bike and that's true. But it's also getting really hard to find any bike that has a dynamo or is suitable for fitting one, for example. Bit like finding a laptop with a decent keyboard and a decent screen.


This analogy is more useful than you could ever realize, given that I've spent most of my life on a bicycle and half of it working in the industry. I certainly understand where you're coming from--really--but an older internal 3-speed is woefully inferior, in almost every way (complexity, limited gear ratios, cost), but some folks, even now, will pay a premium for less performance because of its retro cache (even if you don't like external derailleurs, there are modern internal hubs with less internal complexity, wider ratios and better shifting). If you live anywhere with a hill or wind, this is a huge advantage. Likewise, modern LED lights are superior in pretty much every way, even though the first ones were exactly as you described. Unless you're touring through Africa w/o access to an outlet, there's no comparison. A clip-on, rechargeable light can put out literally 20 times the amount of the brightest generator light and last >20 hours. They've come a long way just in the last 2 years. If companies took the "don't fix it it's not broken approach" these advancements (yes, they're really advancements) never would have come around. Also, as an even more unrelated aside those skinny, complex valves do have their advantages!

I'll enjoy my new X220, I'm actually quite psyched to get it, though I'll freely admit that my experience w/the Edge keyboard has me looking forward to an X230 down the line.

My main reason for posting was to relay my experience with Lenovo's chiclet keyboard, not to pester people, so I apologize if it's come off that way. I just have a time hard with the unsound logic displayed by some folks, and I'm going to call it as I see it. I also understand that I'm not really welcome since the forum moderator is assuming I'm trolling, so I won't be pestering anyone else....


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 Post subject: Re: T430 Chicklet Keys
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:38 pm
Posts: 89
Location: So. Cal.
You are making the assumption that everything new is better. That just isn't necessarily so.


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