T43p: Which HDD-SSD process should I follow?

[Think43p]

Which HDD-SSD process should I follow? Plus do you think there are any flaws in either of these process or any potential issues I may come across.

Project: Upgrading T43p 2668-GEU from HDD to SSD, XP to Win7. Laptop has 2GB ram, maxed out.
SSD: Samsung 840 pro, 128GB
Win 7 source: Retail Win 7 Professional on a DVD.
Data is all backed up.

Process 1:
1. Remove old HDD from its bay
2. Insert SSD into Ultrabay slot using the ultrabay caddy.
3. Insert Win 7 DVD into a USB based external DVD drive
4. Change BIOS to boot from USB
5. Proceed to install and use

Process 2:
1. Install Win 7 on current HDD
2. Use Samsung's software to transfer Win 7 from HDD to SSD.
3. Remove old HDD from its bay
4. Insert SSD into Ultrabay slot using the ultrabay caddy.
5. Proceed to use.

In either case, can I use the SSD straight from its box or do I have to perform some form of formatting before I start using the SSD?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[ajkula66]

Process # 1 all the way.

A clean install *directly* on a SSD beats cloning any day of the week and any hour of the day.

[Khipata]

I second that!

Process 1 ONLY!

[Think43p]

Thanks George and khipata. I'll report back early next week after I try over the weekend. Fingers crossed. Hopefully all goes well.

[dr_st]

Process 1:
1. Remove old HDD from its bay
2. Insert SSD into Ultrabay slot using the ultrabay caddy.
3. Insert Win 7 DVD into a USB based external DVD drive
4. Change BIOS to boot from USB
5. Proceed to install and use

Why would you do this instead of just putting the SSD in the internal bay once you remove the HDD, and booting from the Ultrabay optical?

[Think43p]

That's because the internal bay has a PATA interface and the SSD is SATA.

[dr_st]

D'oh! Sometimes the obvious things are easy to miss.

[Think43p]

Ok, so good and bad news.

Good news: I followed process 1 and the whole installation went smoothly till after the end. The system continued to do 33 updates on restart but then rolled back automatically. But after rebooting once, the updates were successfully installed after about 4-5 restarts.

Bad News: The laptop has been very sluggish right after the main install, during the update process and since then. The way it runs then and now is that at every approx 10 second interval the hard drive activity indicator lights up for about 6-8 seconds and I get no response from the laptop and then for about 2-4 seconds it works(and works fast) but then almost immediately goes back to its frozen state and the cycle continues. This is after I've executed a command(opening browser, clicking on a link, opening word, clicking a youtube video, etc).

Using the laptop has been really a pain. I lost my patience waiting for the 25% of the time I can utilize the laptop.

Any suggestions?

[RealBlackStuff]

Read my signature!

[Think43p]

Oh boy!!!

Do you think my mobo is toast?

[ajkula66]

Oh boy!!!

Do you think my mobo is toast?

Nah.

I believe that RBS was referring to the SATA-modding service that he provides and I can highly - from multiple personal experiences - recommend...

[Johan]

Do you have any idea if e.g some process(es) are causing a high CPU-load? Try see this post and download the two free (and very useful!) tools; the Sysinternals/Microsoft "Process Explorer" and "AutoRuns for Windows" and report back here.

Can you confirm that TRIM is enabled on your new SSD? If so, does disabling it cause any change? See this post about how to check this (run "fsutil behavior set disabledeletenotify 1" with administrator rights, from an elevated command prompt). Also, note the other observations by Xenomorph in the same post!

Furthermore, notice this post where...

My experience on T43 with SATA UltraBay and SSD CORSAIR Force 60 GB is more positive. System response and opening programs are very quick. Boot , same thing of frankiepankie, 30 sec boot delay at the IBM splashscreen: next days i'll try to do some tests with a IDE HDD inserted.

What arizz is (probably) aiming at in the above post is based on how to use a very cheap, fast 2.5" SATA SSD (or a 2.5" SATA HDD) as the main boot drive in the T4x/p UltraBay, and WITHOUT the 30 sec. boot-delay; that which is described in this post where the following very interesting information is shared by TioFrancotirador:

Question: Can this approx. 30 sec. boot-delay be completely avoided/circumvented if a (non-bootable) PATA HDD or SSD, or a "PATA SD card"? (any links to the latter??), is mounted in the main HDD drive bay?

Yes. I do not have 30s delay in boot. I have SSD in UltraBay with Win 7 as main boot. In main IDE drive, where previously I had regular PATA HDD drive, now I have small PATA SD Card reader with an old 1GB card inserted into it. Works great.

Note: TioFrancotirador is using a 2.5" Samsung 830 SATA 128 GB SSD in his T42 UltraBay caddy (and is using this as the main boot drive, running Windows 7).

Additionally, the thread ThinkPad T43 and Windows 8 (and especially this post) should also be of your interest.... where...

I just wanted to say that I've been running a new SSD in my non-modded T43 for the past few days. So far, so good.

Notice that Xenomorph is also posting in the thread New SSD opt. for T4x: mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS* - see especially this page. Xenomorph does not use the UltraBay to hold the (mSATA) SSD; the SSD is mounted in the internal HDD bay (with an adapter).

@ Think43p: What *specific* UltraBay caddy do you use; an original Lenovo part, or some e.g Chinese no-name knock-off?

Bottom line: All the above seems to indicate to me that you ought to have a good chance to get your new 2.5" SATA SSD Samsung 840 Pro to work in your T43p, without needing an expensive SATA-modification.

(PS: I just took the liberty of slightly modifying the title of this thread - to make it a bit more precisely descriptive).

Johan

[ajkula66]

There will be no TRIM on a T43p with a SSD in the UltraBay, period.

I do agree that some runaway process might be turning the machine into a slug, though.

[gehageh]

I want to share with you my recent experience with the installation and running a SSD in my T43. The SSD of my choice was the kingSpec PATA 64 Gb (KSD-PA 18.6-064 MS). At first I installed a modBIOS in order to have SLIC2.1. Then I installed it in the HD bay and I started to install Win7 professional 32 bit from a set of recovery disks for T410. The whole process run flawless and the start and shut down of the laptop is very fast. With the recovery disk Office 2010 was loaded and now I need to buy an activation card for running it. Any idea for a cheap activation card? Also I need to replace the drivers for the wireless network from Lenovo site. A last action would be to run CrystalDisk to test the disk speed.

[Think43p]

Johan/All,

I downloaded and ran Sysinternals/Microsoft "Process Explorer" and "AutoRuns for Windows" and did not find any program hogging the memory. So I decided to d/l CrystalDiskMark and here is the result. Im not an expert in deciphering these numbers so any input would help.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94ohp3qcd6gpze9/CDM302.JPG

[dr_st]

The sequential speeds (especially read speed) are very slow for what I'd expect from an SSD. However I don't have experience with IDE SSD setups to be able to tell you why...

[Think43p]

After a lot of thought, I've decided to say goodbye to the T43p and give it off to an older relative who wants to use it for his daily dose of minesweeper and solitaire.

I plan to remove the SSD and put back the HDD before handing it over. The SSD now heads for the T400.

So Thanks to all for the help given especially George and Johan.

[FrankL]

There will be no TRIM on a T43p with a SSD in the UltraBay, period.

Then please explain this:

Never had issues using TRIM with an Intel X25-V drive in an ultrabay bracket with PATA-to-SATA convertor, in a Thinpad T43. No issues either installing Windows 8 on an Crucial M40 in the same bracket. TRIM is enabled by the OS and working just fine through the SATA ultrabay bracket (verified by TrimCheck-0.5.exe).

However, from the posts in the other threads I've understood that TRIM will not work when a drive is in the main HDD bay (not UltraBay) with the original SATA-PATA bridge still in place.

[ajkula66]

Then please explain this:

Never had issues using TRIM with an Intel X25-V drive in an ultrabay bracket with PATA-to-SATA convertor, in a Thinpad T43. No issues either installing Windows 8 on an Crucial M40 in the same bracket. TRIM is enabled by the OS and working just fine through the SATA ultrabay bracket (verified by TrimCheck-0.5.exe).

News to me.

Will test and report back. That's all I can say.

[Think43p]

Before I could give away my T43p 2668-GEU since it was not working well with the Samsung 840 pro SSD, I took the original HDD (Hitachi 60GB, 7200rpm) and installed Windows 7 32-bit on it and while the performance of normal usage(booting, word, browser, shutdown) is acceptable, viewing youtube videos has been painfully slow and sluggish inspite of having the latest updated drivers(Vista drivers I presume) for the 128MB ATI FireGL V3200 graphics card.

Maybe its just a hunch but I simply feel that Windows 7 and my T43p are not meant for each other.

[topshot]

Never had issues using TRIM with an Intel X25-V drive in an ultrabay bracket with PATA-to-SATA convertor, in a Thinpad T43. No issues either installing Windows 8 on an Crucial M40 in the same bracket. TRIM is enabled by the OS and working just fine through the SATA ultrabay bracket (verified by TrimCheck-0.5.exe).

News to me.

Will test and report back. That's all I can say.

So what was the verdict?

FrankL, what specific bracket/converter are you using? I assume you would be getting slightly less than SATA I speeds because of the conversion?

I'm looking to do some SSD conversions in both T42 and T43, and it's frustrating that you have to do it 2 totally different ways so I'm trying to determine the best yet most cost effective method for both units. It's not worth my time or money to do a full SATA mod for the T43 units.

[ajkula66]

I'm looking to do some SSD conversions in both T42 and T43, and it's frustrating that you have to do it 2 totally different ways so I'm trying to determine the best yet most cost effective method for both units. It's not worth my time or money to do a full SATA mod for the T43 units.

I'd venture a guess that you'll have to go different routes nevertheless...

If my own T42p were in any better shape I'd attempt the whole mSATA thing myself...but it's not.

[topshot]

I'm looking to do some SSD conversions in both T42 and T43, and it's frustrating that you have to do it 2 totally different ways so I'm trying to determine the best yet most cost effective method for both units. It's not worth my time or money to do a full SATA mod for the T43 units.

I'd venture a guess that you'll have to go different routes nevertheless...

If my own T42p were in any better shape I'd attempt the whole mSATA thing myself...but it's not.

So you never tested whether TRIM will work in the Ultrabay as FrankL claimed?

Sounds like it's not as much an issue anymore with newer SSDs that do their own active garbage collection (since I'd hate to not have an optical drive in the UB).

[ajkula66]

So you never tested whether TRIM will work in the Ultrabay as FrankL claimed?/quote]
No. I actually sold my storied T43pSF a couple of days ago, and the sickly T42p will remain in service as a glorified-Linux-testbox until it drops dead which could be any second...

Moving away from ThinkPads is actually a lot easier than I thought it would be...thank you, Lenovo.

Sounds like it's not as much an issue anymore with newer SSDs that do their own active garbage collection (since I'd hate to not have an optical drive in the UB).

Exactly the opposite is true. Only with an old SLC drive can one safely disregard TRIM.

With that said, given the SATA I limit on these machines it should not present a huge issue.

[topshot]

Exactly the opposite is true. Only with an old SLC drive can one safely disregard TRIM.

I don't see why that is the case. It is superior in terms of endurance, but why is garbage collection better?

[ajkula66]

I don't see why that is the case. It is superior in terms of endurance, but why is garbage collection better?

It's not a question of "better" but the case of "not needed".

This is exactly the reason why hellishly expensive SLC drives do not offer TRIM as an option.

On the other hand, read the reviews of newer drives (Samsung, Crucial) on Anandtech and you'll see that they're as good as dead without the TRIM, without exceptions.

Given that we're discussing units that are hardware-limited to SATA I speeds here, the higher transfer speeds of the current SSDs are a non-issue in this scenario.

[topshot]

Except you can't buy older ones (unless used) so we may as well discuss the newer drives. Didn't know SLC didn't need trim but I must admit I haven't kept up with the SSD technology changes. In fact, my first SSD (used in a T510) is the one you apparently hate for some reason, the 840 EVO, and I based my decision to purchase it largely on the Anandtech review you also referred to - "If Samsung can keep quantities of the 840 EVO flowing, and keep prices at or below its MSRP, it'll be a real winner and probably my pick for best mainstream SSD."

[ajkula66]

Except you can't buy older ones (unless used) so we may as well discuss the newer drives.

I picked up a bunch of NOS unused X-25E drives a while ago. Their biggest downfall is the 64GB size, but that's the only minus in that equation.

Right now I'm working on getting a couple of older Plextor SLC drives in larger capacity and then I'll be all set.

In fact, my first SSD (used in a T510) is the one you apparently hate for some reason, the 840 EVO, and I based my decision to purchase it largely on the Anandtech review you also referred to - "If Samsung can keep quantities of the 840 EVO flowing, and keep prices at or below its MSRP, it'll be a real winner and probably my pick for best mainstream SSD."

Heh...I don't "hate" any drives. To put it this way:

a) Before and after 830 which was a huge step forward for them, Samsung has thoroughly failed to impress me. I will admit that I haven't tested the new 850 Pro and can't say anything about it.

b) I never - and I mean *never* - buy such an important part of the system based on price. EVOs get tired pretty fast under real workload, when their faux SLC layer gets overwhelmed. There are better drives out there, although not as inexpensive as EVO.

c) Never have I said that what works for me should work for everyone. With that said, being foolish enough to be an early adopter of many a things - SSDs included - I share what my experiences have been and usually stick to my guns since they were obtained during "real world" testing, and not by reading reviews or comparing price charts.

My $0.02 only...

[topshot]

Heh...I don't "hate" any drives.

You actually said you "hate it with a passion" a few months back. Sounds pretty strong to me.

c) Never have I said that what works for me should work for everyone. With that said, being foolish enough to be an early adopter of many a things - SSDs included - I share what my experiences have been and usually stick to my guns since they were obtained during "real world" testing, and not by reading reviews or comparing price charts.

It was a calculated risk for me. I am normally a very late adopter in my computers, cars, electronics, etc so they've had plenty of time to fail and find out what the common issues are. The EVO was pretty new and mostly untested aside from reviews.

Have you tested the M550 I've seen you recommend then? Anandtech seemed pretty non-plussed by it:

"My only criticism is towards the M550 and how it's positioned in the market. As I mentioned in the M550 review already, I don't really see where the drive fits in the market. It's not fast enough to compete in the enthusiast/professional space but on the other hand there is no reason for an average user to pay the premium for it, especially as the MX100 provides equivalent performance in nearly all scenarios. The 1TB M550 is the only model that makes sense but that is only because the MX100 tops out at 512GB; to be honest I would rather have a 1TB MX100 with the M550 being discontinued. I think the M550 as it currently stands doesn't really contribute anything to Crucial's SSD portfolio and all it does is cause confusion among potential buyers." (from their MX100 review)

[ajkula66]

Have you tested the M550 I've seen you recommend then?

Yes I have.

Like it in the 2.5" format, although I wasn't floored by it. mSATA version would not get my recommendation. Currently playing with MX100 but haven't spent enough time with it to say anything meaningful.

Nowadays I mostly recommend Plextor for mSATA format, and SanDisk for 2.5" presuming one is shopping for the last generation of drives.