Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[w0qj]

Others in below article have said the same thing, that the ThinkPad 25 keyboard looks almost identical to that of the T410 (we have our T410 in front of us as we speak).
So it's a relatively modern take of the traditional/legendary ThinkPad keyboard, albeit with keyboard backlighting.

As we love our T410 for its keyboard and its 16:10 LCD ratio (provides MUCH better vertical spacing for daily work),
we also hope that the ThinkPad 25 would have at least a 16:10 LCD ratio (actually 4:3 ratio of our T42 is preferred).

Apple still uses the 16:10 screen ratio, so if Thinkpad consolidates all of its ThinkPad models to use only 16:10 screen ratio this can be done!

Lenovo: ThinkPad 25 will likely be announced on October 5, only available in certain markets

Based on the available keyboard-layouts, it seems the ThinkPad 25 will be available in the following countries: Germany, Belgium, Spain, France, italy, Netherlands, Sweden, USA, China Great Britain, Japan as well as Denmark and Norway. Of course, this is still unconfirmed information and there is a chance that this list isn´t quite complete.
...

[Puppy]

And another observation. The linked notebookcheck article contains link to TP25 parts list. It also indicates that the only available display option will be 14" FHD touch screen

To summarize current rumors:

• It is T470 with 7-row keyboard but no other ThinkPad classic features

• FHD touch screen display configuration only (IVO and AUO)

• No WQHD screen option/mod possible

• Based on outdated 7th gen CPU

• Limited availability in 13 countries only (that also affects IWS, if available)

I can't say I am keen to buy such "anniversary" product I still don't understand the limited availability because even low-end ThinkPads 11 and 13 are also available worldwide.

[fatpolomanjr]

It's almost like they didn't want it to succeed.

[axur-delmeria]

Feels like the whole affair is just "going through the motions" at best, lip service at worst.

[ansible212]

As soon as details started to appear about the T25 I decided that it wasn't for me... I had been waiting to see what it was like before biting the bullet and going over to the dark side (so to speak) and buying an X1 Carbon 5th Generation which apart from the sub-optimal keyboard layout better suits my needs (the X270 being a woeful successor in my opinion to the X220.

My X1 arrived last Tuesday and I am very pleased with my purchase. I'm even warming to the keyboard (in feel, if not in layout but even that hasn't proved to be a major problem). Build quality is superb (it's the first ThinkPad I've had without any flex, creaks or rattles) and the WQHD screen beautiful. Even the track pad is surprisingly easy to use.

If only the anniversary model had been based on the X1 Carbon...

[Puppy]

If only the anniversary model had been based on the X1 Carbon...

Even worse option because of cooling and throttling issues of thin models. Lenovo makes over 30 completely different devices every year. There is no excuse they decided to not make the ThinkPad 25 the 31st one with dedicated motherboard (allowing LED status indicators and WQHD display). It just indicates their zero commitment to the (unwanted) project. If they can make dedicated motherboard and keyboard for low-end ThinkPad 11e and sell it worldwide I don't understand all the limitations regarding the "anniversary" model.

ThinkPad is dead and it is Lenovo fault, they've missed the last opportunity to fix that. If I have to buy a new laptop with crappy keyboard I'll rather get the 3:2 hi-res screen one and BT mouse instead of trackpoint. Time to change ...

[bgx]

As soon as details started to appear about the T25 I decided that it wasn't for me... I had been waiting to see what it was like before biting the bullet and going over to the dark side (so to speak) and buying an X1 Carbon 5th Generation which apart from the sub-optimal keyboard layout better suits my needs (the X270 being a woeful successor in my opinion to the X220.

My X1 arrived last Tuesday and I am very pleased with my purchase. I'm even warming to the keyboard (in feel, if not in layout but even that hasn't proved to be a major problem). Build quality is superb (it's the first ThinkPad I've had without any flex, creaks or rattles) and the WQHD screen beautiful. Even the track pad is surprisingly easy to use.

If only the anniversary model had been based on the X1 Carbon...

I am a bit in the same situation.
Been using a X1 yoga OLED for the last 2 weeks (from a X60s).
I am very pleased with the keyboard. I got used to the layout and the trackpoint, which was my 2 biggest fears.
I would still prefeer a 7th row keyboard, but that 's ok. Island key is really not an issue.
The feel of the keyboard is better than my X60s. Coming back to the x60s keyboard is actually a bit painful.
Of course, i am not talking about the OLED screen which is just a joy to use.
Been getting 6-9h of battery depending on what i was doing, which is very reasonable.

Now, the main problem is the 16/9 format.
I want pixel instead of plastic/glass, in particular below. We could fit a 16/10 sreen in this bezel as well.

And dont tell me 16/9 is better to fit 2 document next to each other. I could do exactly the same on 16/10, but with more vertical space on both document!

Last, of course, there is the 0 upgradability issue. For the moment, 2 weeks in, it is a no issue, but i may really feel otherwise in 2-3 years (Ram limitation comes to mind).

[ansible212]

And dont tell me 16/9 is better to fit 2 document next to each other. I could do exactly the same on 16/10, but with more vertical space on both document!

I don't disagree with that statement. Luckily, I use two 16:10 24" FHD monitors, although I will probably replace them with a single 32" 4K screen next year (which whilst being 16:9 has significantly more vertical pixels than my current FHD screens).

[Thinkpad4by3]

And dont tell me 16/9 is better to fit 2 document next to each other. I could do exactly the same on 16/10, but with more vertical space on both document!

I don't disagree with that statement. Luckily, I use two 16:10 24" FHD monitors, although I will probably replace them with a single 32" 4K screen next year (which whilst being 16:9 has significantly more vertical pixels than my current FHD screens).

Same. 24" 16:10 is the way to go. Now if I won the lottery I could get the 10,000$ QSXGA monitor 5mp (2560x2048) or two.

[oeuvre]

Quite like my 25" Dell U2515H IPS 2560x1440 monitor... and for laptops for daily use I refuse to go lower than 1080p. I wish 1920x1200 was back though.

[dr_st]

If only the anniversary model had been based on the X1 Carbon...

Even worse option because of cooling and throttling issues of thin models. Lenovo makes over 30 completely different devices every year. There is no excuse they decided to not make the ThinkPad 25 the 31st one with dedicated motherboard (allowing LED status indicators and WQHD display). It just indicates their zero commitment to the (unwanted) project. If they can make dedicated motherboard and keyboard for low-end ThinkPad 11e and sell it worldwide I don't understand all the limitations regarding the "anniversary" model.

Based on everything known so far, I theorize that what happened is that David Hill failed in getting the key players in Lenovo's corporate structure to adopt the project and commit to it. It seems that the best he could get is turn it into a pet project of Lenovo Japan, who did not have the resources to properly develop it from the ground up as a new model, and needed to leverage all they could from existing designs to bring it to market at all.

Still better than nothing, in my opinion, even though I understand not all of you agree. With that said, even if my theory is close to the mark, some compromises would be reasonable in my view, and some would not.

Basing it on the T470 makes a lot of sense - 14" strikes the best balance in terms of size/weight/portability/usability among the mainstream options, and you can stay compatible with all existing docks and accessories (which you would not get if you based it on the Carbon). In this context, I can accept the 16:9 screen, and the same base hardware selection.

However, if, as we currently suspect, it uses the T470 board with the 2-lane eDP instead of the 4-lane eDP, which makes QHD impossible - that's an unreasonable compromise / very big omission in my book. This is a small, simple, cheap design modification (T470 and T470s board are 90% identical anyways), and would make the product way more attractive to many users.

[Thinkpad4by3]

Even worse option because of cooling and throttling issues of thin models. Lenovo makes over 30 completely different devices every year. There is no excuse they decided to not make the ThinkPad 25 the 31st one with dedicated motherboard (allowing LED status indicators and WQHD display). It just indicates their zero commitment to the (unwanted) project. If they can make dedicated motherboard and keyboard for low-end ThinkPad 11e and sell it worldwide I don't understand all the limitations regarding the "anniversary" model.

Based on everything known so far, I theorize that what happened is that David Hill failed in getting the key players in Lenovo's corporate structure to adopt the project and commit to it. It seems that the best he could get is turn it into a pet project of Lenovo Japan, who did not have the resources to properly develop it from the ground up as a new model, and needed to leverage all they could from existing designs to bring it to market at all.

Still better than nothing, in my opinion, even though I understand not all of you agree. With that said, even if my theory is close to the mark, some compromises would be reasonable in my view, and some would not.

Basing it on the T470 makes a lot of sense - 14" strikes the best balance in terms of size/weight/portability/usability among the mainstream options, and you can stay compatible with all existing docks and accessories (which you would not get if you based it on the Carbon). In this context, I can accept the 16:9 screen, and the same base hardware selection.

However, if, as we currently suspect, it uses the T470 board with the 2-lane eDP instead of the 4-lane eDP, which makes QHD impossible - that's an unreasonable compromise / very big omission in my book. This is a small, simple, cheap design modification (T470 and T470s board are 90% identical anyways), and would make the product way more attractive to many users.

They could do the reverse of what one of the fourm members did with the X240s mobo in an X240. How hard would a 470s board in a T470 be?

[Ibthink]

And dont tell me 16/9 is better to fit 2 document next to each other. I could do exactly the same on 16/10, but with more vertical space on both document!

I don´t think anyone would say that 16:10 is worse in that regard. Its mostly an argument pro widescreen in general and against 4:3.

They could do the reverse of what one of the fourm members did with the X240s mobo in an X240. How hard would a 470s board in a T470 be?

Impossible. X240 and X240s are very similar in layout and design, T470 and T470s are not.

An interesting mainboard swap for the Thinkpad 25 could be the ThinkPad T480 mainboard, if you assume that it will still use the T470 design. That however begs the question if the keyboard would work.

[RealBlackStuff]

Which then raises the question: why did/do they not use the T470p motherboard, which allows for WQHD?
What really are the differences between a T470 motherboard and a T470p motherboard?
Dimension-wise mobos should be identical, so use T470p.
Display-wise lids should be identical, so at least give WQHD as an option.

Did David Hill walk off, because he didn't want to be "responsible" for this major Lenovo failure?
Or has Lenovo fooled everybody by "leaking" wrong information and the "real" T25 has the specs that we wanted?
Guess we'll know in 3 days...

[Puppy]

Based on everything known so far, I theorize that what happened is that David Hill failed in getting the key players in Lenovo's corporate structure to adopt the project and commit to it. It seems that the best he could get is turn it into a pet project of Lenovo Japan, who did not have the resources to properly develop it from the ground up as a new model, and needed to leverage all they could from existing designs to bring it to market at all.

I would understand it if Lenovo produced five different devices per year only that a next one would make significant impact on resources. This is not the case since Lenovo produces more than 30 different devices. Is ThinkPad 11e so successful that it generates more revenue than ThinkPad 25 (if done properly) ?

I can also imagine different scenario, Lenovo said that David Hill can make the project, if he leave after that to stop promote "bad old-fashioned ideas" like proper keyboard layout. Don't forget that most of Lenovo revenue is generated by cheap IdeaPad junk and malware OS based mobile devices.

However, if, as we currently suspect, it uses the T470 board with the 2-lane eDP instead of the 4-lane eDP, which makes QHD impossible - that's an unreasonable compromise / very big omission in my book. This is a small, simple, cheap design modification (T470 and T470s board are 90% identical anyways), and would make the product way more attractive to many users.

Yes, for me this is the biggest deal breaker. Together with limited availability that is exceptional in ThinkPad T series history (yes, S20/30 was Asia specific). While Lenovo can officially offer (including ADP) generic US keyboard T25 version in the rest of "second-class" countries I doubt they'll do that.

[Ibthink]

What really are the differences between a T470 motherboard and a T470p motherboard?
Dimension-wise mobos should be identical, so use T470p.

The differences are huge, almost as huge as between the T470s and the T470. For one, the T470p doesn´t have an internal battery, which means its internal layout is completely different. Also, it uses HQ CPUs instead of U-CPUs. U-CPUs are SoCs, which means they have the chipset integrated. HQ CPUs are more traditional in that regard, their chipset is on a separate chip.

Here is the T470 mainboard: https://www.notebookcheck.com/fileadmin ... f93eaa.jpg

And here the T470p: https://www.notebookcheck.com/fileadmin ... a404a4.jpg

I would understand it if Lenovo produced five different devices per year only that a next one would make significant impact on resources. This is not the case since Lenovo produces more than 30 different devices. Is ThinkPad 11e so successful that it generates more revenue than ThinkPad 25 (if done properly) ?

The Thinkpad 11e has a much bigger volume since its sold to schools in bulk. Plus, they are using the same design for four generations now, so the 11e should have payed off by now.

Lenovo may have many products, but only a few are designed at the Yamato labs - these few are the more expensive ThinkPads. And Lenovo doesn´t update every product it has every year, certain designs are used for many generations and years (such as the X270, which is still based on the X240).

[Puppy]

The Thinkpad 11e has a much bigger volume since its sold to schools in bulk.

Not here.

Lenovo may have many products, but only a few are designed at the Yamato labs - these few are the more expensive ThinkPads. And Lenovo doesn´t update every product it has every year, certain designs are used for many generations and years (such as the X270, which is still based on the X240).

But the motherboard is redesigned with every new generation. Which leaves the question how complicated would be to replace the eDP connector on T470 motherboard to allow such basic "anniversary" feature like decent display.

[dr_st]

Which then raises the question: why did/do they not use the T470p motherboard, which allows for WQHD?

It's a different CPU/PCH. I guess they opted for better efficiency over power, which makes sense.

The boards are not the issue at all. There is nothing in the T470 board or any of the components that limits it to FHD, except the choice of eDP connector (and perhaps disabling the chipset pins that enable the extra eDP lanes). One could take a T470 board and do a very small revision to open up higher resolutions. At least that's my understanding.

I can also imagine different scenario, Lenovo said that David Hill can make the project, if he leave after that to stop promote "bad old-fashioned ideas" like proper keyboard layout. Don't forget that most of Lenovo revenue is generated by cheap IdeaPad junk and malware OS based mobile devices.

Seems less likely to me, as it is not a logical scenario for a corporation to follow, but who knows.

Together with limited availability that is exceptional in ThinkPad T series history (yes, S20/30 was Asia specific).

I don't think this will actually happen.

Which leaves the question how complicated would be to replace the eDP connector on T470 motherboard to allow such basic "anniversary" feature like decent display.

I suspect - not complicated at all.

[Thinkpad4by3]

Which leaves the question how complicated would be to replace the eDP connector on T470 motherboard to allow such basic "anniversary" feature like decent display.

No, it's not easy at all. It would require a entire board redesign. Now why in the world did they choose the regular junk unit over the 's' unit is beyond my comprehension. That's like if they made the Anniversary Edition out of a TP 11e without a trackpoint but on some L420 keyboard.

[Puppy]

Now why in the world did they choose the regular junk unit over the 's' unit is beyond my comprehension. That's like if they made the Anniversary Edition out of a TP 11e without a trackpoint but on some L420 keyboard.

The only logical conclusion is they didn't want the product to be a success (because of non-junk keyboard layuot that must be hidden and forgotten). Again, #1 PC vendor company that produces more than 30 different devices has problem to design 31st one that is supposed to be anniversary version of their top product? They seem to hate the ThinkPad line very much over the IdeaPad junk.

[TPFanatic]

T470s is more expensive so building it out of T470 means cheaper price.

[Ibthink]

The T470s also has other limitations. Namely, its battery-performance is less than stellar and it doesn´t have a replaceable, expandable battery (which people voted for after all in the Retro polls).

[Puppy]

So the 25th anniversary ThinkPad that represents laptops sold from $700 to $5000+ range is spoiled because of $1 saved on eDP motherboard connector. Sorry, this is one of most ridiculous aspects in computer industry Wondering who and why decided such stupid limitation of T470 model.

[dr_st]

Wondering who and why decided such stupid limitation of T470 model.

Probably whoever wanted a reason to push people towards the T470s.

Recall that it's not the first time such a weird decision is made. s-variants of T/X as far as *00 series were often offered with higher resolution screens that were not available in the main line models.

The Thinkpad 25 board is not going to be identical to the T470 board, I'm sure. Probably a few minor changes were made. I believe that changing the eDP connector is something that can be done with a very small effort and risk at the board design stage. If they had not done it at this point, I hope the backlash is strong enough to get them to design a Rev. 2 of the board, and fast.

[Puppy]

Probably whoever wanted a reason to push people towards the T470s.

It does not make sense since this model lacks replaceable battery.

The Thinkpad 25 board is not going to be identical to the T470 board, I'm sure.

This is still a mystery. If they really made different motherboard, there is no excuse for missing LED status indicators nor lack of WQHD option It is intentionally crippled then.

[lophiomys]

Probably Lenovo did not actually "decide it",
most likely Lenovo have lost the ability to achieve the high demands
set by long-standing Thinkpad customers and by the brand name "Thinkpad" itself.

Qualified engineers missing? (They all left for 51nb?)
Suppliers unwilling to deliver? (e.g. matte high DPI 4:3 or 3:2 LCDs. )
Strictly "cheapo" company strategy? (but with lots of colourful marketing)

As it seems, not even for a 25th Anniversary, Lenovo would want to create a memorable Thinkpad.

SCNR

[amardeep]

Another alternative is that it would have been nice to add a few little T25 items to the T480 board, and use that. I suppose the timelines didn't match up, and neither did the will to do it.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like it was a miracle anything got done at all. My guess, David Hill seems to have gambled on getting enough momentum via the blog to compel it to happen, but Lenovo as a whole still weren't keen to go the whole-hog, so the compromise we have happened (the number one requirement got done, and had investment behind it, and that's it).

I am also a bit perplexed Lenovo didn't want to put more effort behind it all, but it's their business. Frankly even the Thinkpad line could be simplified, let alone the vast range of other stuff Lenovo does (combine L / E / 13 into some entry level line, and carry on with X / T / P ?).

[Puppy]

The ThinkPad 25, also known as Retro ThinkPad, will be officially announced today.

• Event at Oct 5, 11:00AM EDT: https://www.facebook.com/lenovo/

• Unboxing Video: Oct 5, 9:00 PM EDT. https://www.youtube.com/user/LenovoVision

The Lenovo Retro ThinkPad
http://www.jonashendrickx.com/2017/10/0 ... -thinkpad/

There is supposedly only a single configuration with an Intel Core i7-7xxxU, a Nvidia GeForce 940MX and 500GB SSD which will set you back at roughly 2300 EUR or 1700 USD.

Limited availability in select countries:

U.S. and Japan – October 5
Other countries (France, Germany, Nordics, China, HK, Singapore) – Following days

[RealBlackStuff]

From Lenovo NewsRoom: Happy 25th Birthday ThinkPad!

The price will be $1899

I fail to see the announced "multiple status LEDs" anywhere...

[Thinkpad4by3]

From Lenovo NewsRoom: Happy 25th Birthday ThinkPad!

Richard Sapper rolls over in his grave.